Usha Reifsnider says a church too often can call itself multicultural and fail to hear the people in its pews. Her argument rests on muted group theory, defined by Edwin and Shirley Ardener, which holds that a dominant group sets the language, structure and power of a shared space and that anyone who enters it must adapt to its terms. In her doctoral research on Hindu-background Christ followers in Britain, pastors told her their churches were multicultural and united, so she went to the converts themselves, who used the expected words in church and left their pain and struggle unsaid. Ed Stetzer asks what obligation Christians have to cross cultural lines and where evangelism fits; she answers that evangelical urgency produces templates that discard more than they hold, and that the work starts with meals and friendships, without any obligation to place someone who looks different in the pulpit. Usha Reifsnider has served in cross-cultural mission since 1988 with a focus on migrant engagement and holds a PhD at the intersection of cultural anthropology and practical theology, with research on diaspora people groups. She serves as a Lausanne Europe regional director, and her book is Unmuted: Speaking to Be Heard.
Usha Reifsnider's research among Hindu-background converts in Britain found churches that welcomed them but had not heard them. She and Ed Stetzer discuss muted group theory, language, and evangelism.
The conversation
What is muted group theory, and what does it say about the church?
Reifsnider describes muted group theory, defined by Edwin and Shirley Ardener, through the workplace of the 1970s, where a woman admitted to a dominant group had to act as the men did. Ed Stetzer distinguishes the theory from critical theory and asks why the church should attend to unheard voices. She answers with her doctoral fieldwork: pastors told her their churches were united and multicultural, and she concluded that the people she needed to hear were the converts themselves. In church settings, she says, they used the words that earn recognition and left their pain and struggle unsaid.
How should a church start hearing people unlike its majority?
Ed Stetzer observes that people in a majority culture can feel fear when they stop being the majority, and asks how to respond. Reifsnider says it is easy to point to scripture, and that Christianity is lived through experience. She starts with relationship: coffee, a meal, friendships with Christlike people, built without the obligation to place someone who looks different in the pulpit. She argues that a multicolored church is not always a multicultural one, that words such as family carry different weight for a Western Christian and a Gujarati-speaking migrant, and that pastors should read majority-world theologians alongside their usual authors. Inclusion, she says, does not negate the voice of the majority culture in its own country. Asked by Ed Stetzer about Christian obligation, she grounds it in who Jesus was and says friction produces energy for growth. On the pace of evangelism, she says evangelical urgency produces templates that discard more than they hold. Stetzer replies that his concern is whether Christians share the gospel at all.
From the conversation
"The truth of the matter is that we live our Christianity through our lived experiences. And so people say all the time, 'Your identity is in Christ.' But sometimes the challenge for me is how a majority culture identifies me." - Usha Reifsnider
"Build that relationship without feeling the obligation that I've just have to find somebody who looks different and plonk them in the pulpit to prove that I'm actually being as diverse as I can be." - Usha Reifsnider
"I think the gospel was always meant to be one of movement. The gospel was never meant to be stuck in one place. It was never meant to be just one language or one location." - Usha Reifsnider
About Usha Reifsnider
Usha Reifsnider has served in cross-cultural mission since 1988, with a focus on migrant engagement. She holds a PhD at the intersection of cultural anthropology and practical theology and serves as a Lausanne Europe regional director and on the board of the European Evangelical Alliance. Her book is Unmuted: Speaking to Be Heard.
Website: https://www.ushamattreifsnider.com
[00:00:01] Usha Reifsnider: I wanted to relate to these women in a non-religious way, you sort of share parts of life. It took them a year to figure out that I was a Christian, two years to figure out that I was a missionary.
[00:00:12] Usha Reifsnider: But around about the three-year mark They started making confessions of faith. And it didn't come with Christian language. "I need to repent. You know, I've got sin in my life." It was words like, "I've really screwed up. It took these women two and a half, three years to understand Jesus in a language and vocabulary that meant something to them.
[00:00:40] Ed Stetzer: What if the words in church don't mean what we think they mean, like family, welcome, belonging, even mission? So my guest today grew up in a Hindu family in Britain. She became a Christian, was baptized, and that decision cost her dearly. She was rejected by her family and for a time effectively homeless, and yet that experience helped shape a remarkable life and mission. And a provocative question for the church, are we really hearing the voices of people who come to Christ from cultures very different from our own? I actually recorded this in the chapel of Wycliffe Hall at Oxford University, where I have the privilege of serving as a distinguished visiting scholar.
[00:01:16] If you're watching on YouTube, you may notice that I'm recording this introduction in a different place. I'm here with the Gloo team. This podcast is sponsored and made in partnership, with Gloo, and today we're talking about migration, evangelism, Hinduism, race and culture, the multi-voice church, and why some of the most familiar Christian language may communicate something very different than we intend. My guest today is Usha Reifsnyder. She's a British Gujarati Christ follower, she'll explain that, longtime cross-cultural missionary, and Lausanne Europe's regional co-director, and she's the author of Unmuted: Speaking to Be Heard. This is the Exchange. I'm Ed Stetzer. Let's get into it.
[00:01:56] Ed Stetzer: Well, Usha, we've known each other for a few years serving together at Lausanne. As a matter of fact, why don't you explain a little bit what do you do ministry-wise and kind of where we served together in Lausanne?
[00:02:06] Usha Reifsnider: That's a good question. I have been a missionary for 37 years. I came to faith from a Hindu background, so mission was very, very important to me. I serve as a missionary right now with European Christian Mission, focusing mostly on the countries of Europe, but my interests lie in the migrant communities that come from other faiths, mostly Hindu backgrounds.
[00:02:28] Ed Stetzer: And huge, huge migration into Europe. We, we... And it's controversial in the US in general, and by the way, I should tell people you have a US connection. But, here it's a much larger experience in the UK and more. So where does the gospel opportunity or mission fit into that migration question?
[00:02:47] Usha Reifsnider: I think, when people migrate, they do everything they can, as we all do when we travel, to take the things that are most meaningful to us. And for Hindus, taking their Hindu practices is part of that migration journey. But because Hinduism isn't based on a book or a specific book or a confession or conversion, there's a sort of, a flexibility in how Hinduism is practiced. So in the migration space for everyone doesn't matter who it is, the Americans, Brits, from any place in the world, your ideology shifts as you move. And you may not be as aware of it. And so in terms of, as an evangelical Christ follower, and I believe the God-given mandate to be mission-focused and to share the gospel, I think seeking spaces with migrants to speak about their ideological shifts is a very, satisfying, encouraging, and fruitful place of ministry.
[00:03:49] Ed Stetzer: Fascinating. And of course, you've written this book, it's called Unmuted: Speaking to Be Heard, and I wanna talk some about that. But I wanna kinda go to partly where you go in the book. You sort of talk about, an, a theology, a theological vision for the multi-voiced church. So obviously undergirding that is a desire for people to be heard and how they're heard and how they're not heard, but unpack that a little bit for us. The f- let's start with the theology.
[00:04:15] Usha Reifsnider: Well, I mean, when we think of Pentecost and we think of what happened, when everyone heard the good news in their own language, and then Peter says, "Look, it's al- we've already got this prophecy from Joel. You know, it's gonna be young men and old, and it's gonna be people from every tribe, tongue, and nation, in a sense." And so the idea that the multiple voices, it's not a new thing. It's a thing that came from Pentecost. And so the idea that people from every language and every culture can understand and express the gospel from their language and culture, because language informs culture, culture informs language, language and culture inform theology. And so to have multiple voices in that, if you like, choir of Christian expression is a beautiful place to think of how God works in a nation.
[00:05:15] Ed Stetzer: It's definitely a Revelation 7 vision, and you articulate a Revelation 7 vision. But that's not... I mean, right now that's controversial in some parts of the world, you know? And of course, in America, we often talk about being a melting pot. Now, let's talk about your own experience in America. You're an Usha from Middletown, Ohio.
[00:05:33] Usha Reifsnider: I'm British by birth Gujarati by heritage. I'm married to an American from Middletown, Ohio. I actually got married here in Oxford. Moved to Middletown just a few weeks later. I was in this space of, not knowing where I fit. Because in Britain, I'd always been Black. And then I get to the US, and they say, "Oh, you're not Black." Well, I'm not white either. And the church space was welcoming. But I was... I think I was sort of welcomed not just, as a family, you know, part of this big Reifsnider family, but also as something, someone that was a little bit different.
[00:06:09] Ed Stetzer: So a part of the book deals with questions of diversity. How do we address it? Again, in America, increasingly controversial question. So talk to us about what do you think is a biblical vision for diversity, and why does it matter that we have such a vision?
[00:06:24] Usha Reifsnider: Well, as you mentioned Revelation 7 I think that's a good forward-thinking way. But also I think of when Jesus taught his disciples to pray. And he said, "Pray like this, on Earth as it is in heaven." Now, we all pray that prayer. Okay? It's a well-known prayer. And when we put our own daily life experience to those words, we think of things like no injustice, you know, no criminality, no death, no disease, no corruption.
[00:06:56] But I think of Revelation 7 when I think of on Earth as it is in heaven. So if there's every tribe, tongue, and nation around the throne, then surely on Earth as it is in heaven. So it is frightening for people who've grown up with a tradition and a way of life that they have always thought of in a particular way, and then being challenged from multiple voices from outside. But I think that those challenges make our Christianity stronger, and they make our growth towards the kingdom stronger as well.
[00:07:37] Ed Stetzer: Yeah. When-- You've mentioned people can experience fear from that. And again, I think that it is interesting that Revelation 7 vision actually specifically identifies that you can tell in eternity that people are from different tongues, tribes, and nations. So that identity seems to persist. But I think it's a rightful statement that people are fearful, particularly maybe sometimes in majority culture when they're not the majority anymore. Or so how do you respond to people who might respond that way, about diversity?
[00:08:10] Usha Reifsnider: First of all, it's easy to say look at scripture. Okay? But the truth of the matter is that we live our Christianity through our lived experiences. And so people say all the time, you know, "Your identity is in Christ." "Your identity is in Christ." But sometimes the challenge for me is how a majority culture identifies me. So if you and I walk into a church, chances are they might know you because you're Ed Stetzer, right? But let's say we go to a place where you're not known. You have to make friendships, shake hands, and as soon as you say, "Hey, my name's Ed Stetzer." But just looking at you, you look as if you belong in that space. But for me I have to prove myself.
[00:08:52] You know, 'cause even still, you know, I mean, I lived in the US for over 20 years. When people hear that I'm a missionary and that I was a missionary to the US, they think that I'm trying to convert people to Hinduism or Islam. Because I don't look like what they think a missionary looks like, and neither do they think that I look like what a Christian should look like because it looks as if I'm out of place. So sometimes our religious identity and our religious identification of others is based on geography. So if they saw a picture of me in an Indian church in India, they'd be okay with that. But seeing me in their spaces challenges a little bit even though we know that every tribe, tongue, and nation are around the throne.
[00:09:37] Ed Stetzer: Mm. And part, of course, the title of the book is Unmuted, so part of that is you want to make sure people's voices from different contexts, backgrounds, men and women, that their voices are heard. So what draw you... And you gotta explain a little bit about what is muted group theory. What is that? Explain that, and then talk about what draw, drew you to it.
[00:09:57] Usha Reifsnider: So, muted group theory was originally defined by Edwin and Shirley Ardner. Actually, Shirley Ardner's still alive. She's 100 years old, and she lives around the corner.
[00:10:08] Ed Stetzer: No. How interesting. By the way, I should say that we're actually having this conversation at Oxford University at Wycliffe Hall.
[00:10:13] Usha Reifsnider: We are.
[00:10:14] Ed Stetzer: So for those who are, you know, wondering why we keep saying Oxford, that's why. Yeah.
[00:10:17] Usha Reifsnider: Thank you. And originally the discussion was around women in the workplace. So think about the 1970s when, major corporations and businesses didn't really have women in senior leadership. And so eventually it came to a point where, you know, let's, you know, we're not sexist. You know, let's invite a woman in. But in order for a woman to be in that group, in that dominant group, she had to leave the subordinate group and be part of the dominant group, and in that dominant space, she had to act like a man, dress like a man. But not only that, she had to put up with being paid less and also being the butt of jokes, but she also had to be grateful that she was a woman in that space. So over time, you can see now that more and more women are in that space, but there is still that dominant and subordinate tension. The thing is, the shift wasn't there in the church.
[00:11:18] Ed Stetzer: Interesting.
[00:11:19] Usha Reifsnider: And in a lot of ways, if we think about it, this is the place where inclusion and openness should begin.
[00:11:28] Ed Stetzer: Okay, so when a lot of people hear about, you know, dominant group, to them their mind goes to... 'Cause it really become a popular point of discussion today is critical theory, which this is more of anthropological linguistic sort of approach, and probably has some things in common, but also some pretty significant differences. So why do you think that approaching things with muted group theory is important for the church? I think that's where you're headed, and I jumped in. So talk to us a little about, little bit about, why you think it's important that the church think about these issues, about unheard voices.
[00:12:00] Usha Reifsnider: When I started my research for my PhD, I wanted to visit churches and find out where the Hindu background Christ followers were. And so I started talking to pastors, and, I just went around the country and I said, "You know, do you have any, South Asian people who've become Christ followers from a Hindu background?" And they would say, "Oh, you know, I don't know. Yeah, we've got this one Indian woman. She calls herself, Christine." And I'm like, "Oh, okay. Do you know her real name?" "No. No. No." "Do you know her last name?" "No. She just sits... She's with a, she's with an African woman, so she's okay, and she takes communion.
[00:12:42] She's been coming here for years." And then they say, "Oh, yes, but we've got a Muslim convert." Get all excited about that. I say, "Okay, fine." So I went from church to church to church looking for Hindu background Christ followers and asking pastors about their experience, and the pastors would say, "Oh, but we're all one here. You know, we're multicultural. You know, we welcome everybody." And I realized that I was looking to hear about the experiences of people like me from a dominant voice. And they did the best that they could, but in honesty, the people I needed to speak to were the Hindu converts themselves.
[00:13:23] And so I got in contact, you know, through one or two people and finding out where the Gujarati Christians were, and there are 800,000 of them here in Britain. Sorry, 800,000 Gujarati people. And 300 Christ followers. And I spoke to 200 of them. And as I listened to their stories, I recognized that they have a testimony that the church wants.
[00:13:53] "Can you share your five-minute testimony?" And that testimony usually follows, "Hinduism is bad, Christianity is good. I was evil, now I'm good. Everything over there is evil, and everything here is good." But what we didn't get was the entirety of their life experience. So I found that when I interviewed people, if I interviewed them in a church and they knew that I was a missionary or a Christian, they used particular words to get that recognition. You know, the way we nod and shake and observe people, and we all want those affirmations. So that was the extent of how they would express their Christianity. But what was hidden and what was not said was a lot of their pain and suffering and struggle. And I thought to myself, the church needs to hear this.
[00:14:48] The individual pastors need to be able to understand how to reach their families and how to hold this life experience of conversion within the church community. So that's where the crossover came, I think. Yeah.
[00:15:04] Ed Stetzer: Okay, so talk to us a little bit about, language and language that we use and, and, and... 'Cause we wanna make sure we hear and engage people from different cultures and backgrounds. How does language impact that?
[00:15:18] Usha Reifsnider: Well, have you ever tried to share Jesus with someone without using any Christian terminology?
[00:15:24] Ed Stetzer: I don't know. I don't remember.
[00:15:26] Usha Reifsnider: Okay. I did that experiment one time. And, it was a group of women at a gym, and I was going to this gym and I thought, "Okay, I want to share Jesus with these women without telling them I'm a Christian, inviting them to church, or telling them that I'm a missionary." And so, I-- This is when I started actually doing long distance running, and I was getting up at half past 4:00 in the morning. It's Jacksonville, Florida, and you're running in the dark, and it's cooking hot. And so inevitably, we would pair off into twos. There were about six of us in this group. And what I found is that while you're running, you sort of share parts of life.
[00:16:10] Ed Stetzer: Mm-hmm. I gasp for air, but okay, keep going.
[00:16:12] Usha Reifsnider: So as you're sharing sort of your experiences and your husband and wife and this and that, you know, people start to open up. Now, I've been a Christian since I was 11, and I've been going to church since I was 5. But I wanted to relate to these women in a non-religious way, and what I found is that it took them a year to figure out that I was a Christian, and then it took them two years to figure out that I was a missionary.
[00:16:45] But around about the three-year mark They started making confessions of faith. And it didn't come with Christian language. It didn't come through, "I need to repent. You know, I've got sin in my life." It was words like, "I've really screwed up. So I recognize that it took these women two and a half, three years to understand Jesus in a language and vocabulary that meant something to them. Now, if you take that conversation into a cultural and a linguistic place that's not English, then there's a massive shift.
[00:17:31] So what you call family As an American, as a Christian, as a white person, just as my husband is, is very different to what an Indian person calls family. And the responsibility of the word family is very different in our current cultural space, in our Christian space, in the Western space, in the English space, compared to what it means to me as a second-generation migrant, as a Gujarati-speaking person, as a person whose idea of family comes from a completely different ideology.
[00:18:10] So to explore language, even English language, even the word family to me as a migrant and the word family to you as a migrant temporarily from the US, we have to think about the, not just the context of these words, but the lived experience of these words in how we express our daily Christian life. When I started going to church, I was thrilled to hear about the family of God, and I memorized scripture verses and I did all those things, and I sang all the little choruses that you sing as a child.
[00:18:45] And then, I made a confession of faith at the age of 11, and, I went home and I told my parents, and they were not pleased, and they stopped me going to church and different things like that. And then at about the age of 19, we had moved house and started going to church again, and I heard that I had to be baptized. And in some ways, and this is through some, ancient mission practices, as a Hindu background person, they would say they're not really Christian until they get baptized. You know, you have to be baptized. The church that I got baptized at was around the corner from my parents' house, and I sneaked out and I got baptized.
[00:19:28] And I walked in. My dad said, "Where have you been?" I said, "I went to church." He said, "Well, did you...?" "I got baptized." So he slapped me across the face. And I grabbed a few things, and I left. And so for two years, I was effectively homeless.
[00:19:42] Because in our expression of Hinduism, you're only bathed by somebody else when you die, and once that person is dead, and that's what we say at baptism, you're dead, you come back out. The dead person can't walk into a family home, so we don't have the, a dead body in the house. It has to go through cleansing rituals. And so I had effectively said to my parents, "I am dead to you and to Hinduism because I'm now a follower of Jesus." So just if you can imagine the whole idea of family in those two contexts are so, so misunderstood.
[00:20:21] Ed Stetzer: So I get the distinction of the word family in this context and versus a, you know, predominantly Hindu context or a South Asian context versus maybe a Western context. So what then should we do? So I want to, you know, I'm a Christian. I want to be a part of a family of God that has people from every tongue, tribe, and nation. But I do have certain words that mean certain things in this context. So what then should we do in light of this information?
[00:20:47] Usha Reifsnider: I think in light of this information, it's interesting to have relationship with those that are not like us. Now, one of the things I noticed when I was living in the US is, there's so much space. There's a lot of space. And there's no pedestrian culture like we have on our very small island. And so, and also the churches are huge. So it's very easy to stay in your denominational lanes, okay? And there's very little crossover. But in the churches in this country, because we see each other on the streets all the time—
[00:21:22] Ed Stetzer: Right, and we're in UK, so just so we have context, we're in England.
[00:21:23] Usha Reifsnider: That's right. We're in England. We're on a small island. We're- our cities are packed, and we walk everywhere because, you know, it's not so far to go. And in that walking, we interact with other people, we see other people. When we go into our churches, we're more likely to meet people who are not like us.
[00:21:43] Ed Stetzer: Oh, for sure. Than perhaps we- The churches here are much more diverse in general.
[00:21:46] Usha Reifsnider: And so in that relationship building your idea of tribe and tongue and nation expands, as does mine. So we become relational. You know, if you came to my house, you know, I'd make you tea because that's what British people do.
[00:22:02] Ed Stetzer: Sure. I would expect no less.
[00:22:03] Usha Reifsnider: Right? But I would also, because of my Indian side, make you Indian food. And sharing my food is become, becoming part of sharing my culture and sharing my life. And eating together and fellowshipping together actually, I think, does more to inform our lived theology than anything that we imagine, than the things that we sort of take informally on a Sunday morning. So I think step one is familiarity with those that are around you. Now, if you happen to live in some small village on the Shetland Islands, you're not likely perhaps to come across people that are not like you.
[00:22:42] So I think those of us who are in these intercultural spaces shouldn't spend our time beating up people who don't naturally have those people in their geographical area. So I think the beginning is the building of relationship and the hearing of the lived experiences of our Christian life that make up the 166 hours that we don't spend in church. You know, 168 hours in the week, perhaps two hours in church. But our time outside of church is where we're building these multi-voiced, multi-perspective multi-dimensional experience of lived faith.
[00:23:19] Ed Stetzer: And you talk a lot about listening, missional listening, even using language like that. So, what does that look like... Well, you talked about in the context in our community, but what does it look like in a church setting? Like if I'm a Christian... And I'm hoping we're seeing, you know, more people come to Christ in different cultures, backgrounds, and the same co- we want all people to hear and follow the good news of the gospel, but I wanna also be a church where people are heard, welcomed, and valued. So what are some missional listening practices?
[00:23:48] Usha Reifsnider: There's a chapter in the book by, a dear friend of mine called, Dr. David Wise. And in the 1980s, he was in a church in Greenford, which is a part of London. And, back then, there was less talk of this sort of intercultural theology. And when he moved to that area, the church was, had a migrant population, but over time, the demographics changed, and one by one, different people were coming from different ethnic backgrounds. And, he had this practice of every nation group that came in, they would purchase their own flag and it would go up on the wall.
[00:24:35] Ed Stetzer: I've seen churches do that.
[00:24:36] Usha Reifsnider: And so there was a real pride in sort of welcoming the nations. But also he started including things like African songs and songs from different languages and, you know, the Africans would dance as they gave the offering. And, you know, there was freedom for all sorts of things. But he also started including them in leadership, not only, sort of in the context of the church, but if he was invited to go speak somewhere else, he would make sure he would take his leaders with him so that they were contributing and so on. Anyway, the church was thriving and growing, and then there was an incident in the community where a family from the church was being racially harassed in the community.
[00:25:24] And, they had made the suitable complaints and done different things. And then one night, in the middle of the night, three masked men broke into the house and beat up the parents, savage beating. And then they attacked, the young adult son, and they attacked him so badly that he had to have plastic surgery, and he was hospitalized for quite a time. And the police came, and they took the report, and then the family went back to church.
[00:25:54] And, different people in the church said, "Look, what's going on?" And they said, "Look, the police haven't done anything yet," and so they were waiting. And then finally, several members of the church said, "No, we need to go to the police station and find out what's going on." And they found out that the police actually had all the information and had neglected to do anything. And so there was a proper inquiry. And none of this was initiated by the elders or the leadership of the church because the interculturality that they claimed within the church worked when the church doors were closed and they walked away.
[00:26:33] And so the opportunity to do things in these spaces grows as we become familiar with different languages. When I come to the U.S., I am in Am- I don't expect every church to have Gujarati hymns up there or songs up there. But I expect that when I become part of it, that who I am and my Christian experience feeds into the church there. Right? I'm not gonna say, "Oh look, you don't have any Indian elders, and you don't have this." Let's look at the church community and be inclusive, not from the point of view because we want to look good, but because this actually contributes to the benefit of our Christian living as a Christian community.
[00:27:15] Ed Stetzer: Yeah, I was... I preached recently at, Bethlehem Baptist Church up in Minneapolis, so kind of famous 'cause John Piper was there. He was there last Sunday, too. Him and Noel were both there. But what was interesting to me, it was a conservative church by... No one would question it as being a conservative church. But they sang a song in Spanish, and then I'm trying to remember. I think it was Cote d'Ivoire. They had a songwriter who kind of started by premiering a hymn. Now, it was missions conference, so, you know, there's more of that at missions conference. I was... That's why I was there speaking on missions.
[00:27:45] But it kind of struck me that as I looked around the room, it wasn't just because it was missions conference. I mean, there were people in the church who were from these cultural contexts as well. So I think it's easier, to elevate and value different cultures when you have people from different cultures, though that doesn't happen all the time either. Sometimes prevailing culture is what's the norm. It may be harder in a monocultural setting, but let's, so let's talk about both of them. So what are some things in a multicultural setting? Maybe I'm in, like I'm in Los Angeles County, Every church I've been to in Southern California is multicultural, multiethnic. What are some ways we could value that and make sure people who are different cultures and contexts are seen and valued in that and heard in that?
[00:28:27] Usha Reifsnider: So a lot of people think a multicolored church is a multicultural church. And that's not necessarily the case. It doesn't mean that there's any ill will. This is not about ill will at all. It's just that we have tasks that we have to do and we are discipling a church and we only have a few hours with them. So one of the things I would suggest is that, leaders Who've been to seminary, been to Bible college, who've got qualifications, should continue to learn from the theology of people from the majority world. So as a theologian, I'm sure you engage with Latin American theologians.
[00:29:15] Ed Stetzer: Sure, sure.
[00:29:15] Usha Reifsnider: And if our pastors and leaders were to look at their bookshelves most of the people's names are pronounceable. And so sometimes maybe it's time to look at different theological voices. Now, that does not mean you reject one for the other. Right? I mean, we're both academics. We never have enough bookshelves. You can always put one more book on there.
[00:29:38] Ed Stetzer: That may be the most important thing that... I'm gonna play this part for my wife, but yes, I agree. So again, it's listening to people from different cultures and contexts, and finding ways to sort of value them in that, and their voices in the church context.
[00:29:54] Usha Reifsnider: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so, you've heard sermons on the Book of Ruth. I'll tell you, if you listen to an Indian theologian speak about the Book of Ruth, it's completely different. It's completely different because in our culture we would do that. We would follow our mother-in-law. And so there's very different ways of looking, and the whole way of how Boaz takes... Culturally, we have an understanding of that beautiful book in a way that can actually contribute to the way you look at the Book of Ruth, and it doesn't push one out for the other. It actually gives us the opportunity to engage with both, and that gives value to the people in the congregation, right, who have always agreed with your story, but also recognize some of their story as well, when you have different theologians and different voices coming in.
[00:30:53] Ed Stetzer: Okay, so the book is unmuted and when we think in terms of, like, having a responsibility, like I'm in a majority culture. So what is my role, my responsible, maybe pastors and church leaders to... You know, 'cause again, I think it's sometimes easy. You started by talking about this, Indian woman, South Asian woman, who had just sort of blended in and didn't, you know... Nobody was necessarily drawing her out in this as well. What's my responsibility as Christians?
[00:31:23] Usha Reifsnider: So here's the thing. We're face to face at the moment, okay? I can see the wall behind you, and you can see the wall behind me. Ed, if something was coming towards you from the back, I would protect you. Right? And I know you would do the same for me. There are things that we can see that others can't, and it's being able to sit and say, "I can't see this, but I'm going to trust that what you see behind me can be of benefit to me." It's about building this relationship where we can look at different perspectives without the fear of losing our own.
[00:31:58] Ed Stetzer: Mm-hmm. Okay, so that's not a natural thing though for us to do. We're sort of naturally... In-group dynamic is pretty strong. We're sort of naturally drawn to people like us. Is there a deeper responsibility as a Christian to build bridges with people different than us? Is it the same responsibility as people in culture? I mean, what's the Christian obligation here? Is there one?
[00:32:16] Usha Reifsnider: I think there is a Christian obligation because of who Jesus was. I mean, we... It's not uncommon now to hear that Jesus was a refugee child, he was illegitimate. We know all those things. We look at the factual things about it, and some of those things are very uncomfortable, and I think being uncomfortable with some of those things is good. I think it's good for us 'cause I think iron sharpens iron. You know, we need friction for energy, and we need energy for growth. And so I agree that it's scary. I agree that, you know, we want things to be a particular way because it helps us to sort of point our faith in a particular direction with a particular viewpoint in mind.
[00:32:58] But I think the gospel was always meant to be one of movement. The gospel was never meant to be stuck in one place. It was never meant to be just one language or one location. It was meant to be for the young and the old, for the Black and the white, for the male and the female, and all of those voices also contribute to how that gospel is shared. It's scary. It's scary, 'cause I like things to be the same. The older I get the more I want things to be the same.
[00:33:25] Ed Stetzer: That's a fair description of getting older as well. I can relate to that. So what would it look like then, for a church to be the kind of place that, you know, when you have different background people, you specifically focused on migrant, communities from Hindu background. But more broadly, what would it look like for the church to be the kind of place that starts living into that Revelation chapter seven vision today?
[00:33:48] Usha Reifsnider: I think, speaking for most people I know here in Britain, most Christians I know have relationships that are multi-ethnic multicolored. Start with those. Start with just having a cup of coffee. Start with having a meal with somebody, and build that relationship without feeling the obligation that I've just gotta find somebody who looks different and plonk them in the pulpit you know, to prove that I'm actually being as diverse as I can be. And not all relationships with people, whether they're your same ethnicity or a different one are gonna be fruitful.
[00:34:23] There are some people that you're not gonna get along with regardless of whether American or not American. So don't give up. If somebody's voice and somebody's relationship isn't quite the one that that gels for you, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Seek friendships with Christlike people where we can not just see that we're made in the image of God, but you can see something of that redemption power of Jesus Christ in one another.
[00:34:48] Ed Stetzer: Well, where... And where does evangelism fit into this? Where do... When I start building bridges what's the place, maybe what's the pace of sharing the gospel? I mean, you kinda surprised me when you talked about this longevity of your running relationship, so, particularly as a missionary. So what's the pace, what's the place for that evangelistic conversation?
[00:35:04] Usha Reifsnider: That's a good, good question. I think in our evangelical world, we have had a particular perspective of eschatology where we want people to get saved quickly. Jesus coming back, Jesus coming back. And in that attempt, we try to create a template and make that template work for everyone. And although it will work for some, sometimes when you look at a template, there's more that's cut out and thrown away than there is that's held within the template. And so, looking at different ways to share Jesus is one of the most thrilling things about being a missionary.
[00:35:43] Ed Stetzer: I just want Christians to share Jesus at all let alone so again, I'm more concerned that they... Rapidity is great, slow boil is great, but getting them to actually build relationships, share the gospel, it seems to me to be a missing piece.
[00:35:56] Usha Reifsnider: It is. And I think one of the things is that, as I said, are what, are wanting to do things quickly because Jesus is coming back soon, but also we still rely on some of the methods used from the William Carey era. God bless him. He's fantastic.
[00:36:13] Ed Stetzer: William Carey, a missionary, famous missionary of South Asia.
[00:36:15] Usha Reifsnider: Absolutely. But during that time, and of course William Carey was a person of his time a time of the British Empire. And at that time, mission was done in a way of, well, if we can give them food, then give them Jesus. We'll give them Jesus and food, or if they need education, or if they need medicine or if they need... If we can fill a need, then we can lift them up a little bit and give them Jesus. Well, these days, you know, if you speak to the Hindu migrants in this country, and they're the wealthiest people here.
[00:36:48] Ed Stetzer: Yeah. As a certain, as a people group, yeah.
[00:36:51] Usha Reifsnider: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, and I think that's probably around the world as well in terms of the Hindu diaspora. So what does it take, Ed, to look somebody in the face and still have the conviction of sharing the gospel and saying that Jesus is good news? And that, I think, is relational. I don't think you can create templates for that. However, we all have different giftings. And, what an evangelist does from a pulpit, and what you do as a neighbor are still links in the chain to bring that person Closer to who Jesus is. And I often speak about, Bebington's quadrilateral, the four points: conversion, the Biblicism, the, crucicentrism, and then the action.
[00:37:38] Ed Stetzer: Right. And we should say that that's Bebington's quadrilateral definition of what makes up an evangelical for people who might not be familiar.
[00:37:43] Usha Reifsnider: And so that's just-- that's a very broad brushstroke.
[00:37:46] Ed Stetzer: Right. For sure.
[00:37:47] Usha Reifsnider: But I love how instead of that creating a box that we have to jump into, I love how Paul Hebert reverses that and looks at the four points without the walls where people are coming in. So you might have someone who's really, really, really good on knowing the Bible but doesn't actually understand conversionism. Right.
[00:38:06] Ed Stetzer: Right.
[00:38:07] Usha Reifsnider: Or there's somebody that's really, really good at doing good things. Like, I mean, you've seen Muslims do good things. You know, the, Sikh temples feed thousands and thousands and thousands of people, so they're good on doing good things, but they don't understand conversionism or crucicentrism or Biblicism. So I think if we look at that, aspect of bringing people closer to knowing who Jesus is instead of looking for an instant result... 'cause if we look for just conversion, then the majority of us miss out on our calling to bring people towards the gospel. They will hear the gospel, but they will also feel the gospel. They will experience the gospel through friendship and through dialogue and through discussions and through arguments and through sermons and through so many different ways of life.