John Dickson argues Christians with cultural power should persuade with gentleness and learn to lose well when the vote goes against them. Recorded at Wycliffe Hall, Oxford, the conversation opens with secularization in Australia, Britain, and the United States, where Dickson expects irreligion to grow angrier even as interest in Christianity revives, and he reads recent upticks in church attendance as nominal Christianity bottoming out. Ed presses him on two points where they disagree: Dickson's objection to the word "apologist" and his claim that the primary sources do not support Michael Green's picture of early Christians gossiping the gospel. Dickson describes a church that grew through catechesis, prayer, godly lives, and generosity, and draws on his book Bullies and Saints to argue that Christian history shows its bullies alongside a built-in habit of repentance. John Dickson is the Jean Kvamme Distinguished Professor and Distinguished Scholar in Public Christianity at Wheaton College, host of the Undeceptions podcast, and author of more than 20 books, including Bullies and Saints: An Honest Look at the Good and Evil of Christian History. An ordained Anglican and historian of the ancient world, he founded Australia's Centre for Public Christianity in 2007.
Historian John Dickson and Ed Stetzer teach an evangelism course together at Oxford and air their disagreements in front of the students. Here they take up two of those disagreements, and a question with stakes for American churches: what Christians should do with cultural power?
The conversation
How did the early church spread the gospel?
Dickson opens by defending his refusal of the title "apologist." Secular usage now means propagandist, he argues, and apologetics that selects only favorable evidence will fail the first skeptic who has read further. Ed, dean of a school with a large apologetics program, holds to the word and agrees about the practice. The sharper disagreement is historical. Dickson reads 1 Peter 3:15, the Great Commission, and Psalm 96 as one pattern, in which conviction that Christ holds all authority comes first and the readiness to speak follows. He calls the decline of evangelism a spiritual crisis first.
Should Christians use cultural power to change laws?
Ed challenges the phrase Dickson uses to unsettle audiences: Christians should learn to lose well. In America, Ed notes, that can sound like a loser's mentality, and evangelical influence can change laws for good. Dickson agrees influence should be used, through persuasion, gentleness, and respect, and warns that power makes it easy to sound like a bully. His measure comes from Bullies and Saints. Jesus set a melody of love for enemies, and the church's record shows departures from it that were often exposed by the Christians who condemned them. He closes with a test for American churches: whether skeptics would describe Christians as people who give themselves for others.
From the conversation
"The way the early church grew in antiquity was in more subtle ways. Yes, every Christian was on the lookout for opportunities to give an answer for the faith, but it's these other dimensions of prayer, godly life, and money." — John Dickson
"It seems to me the thing that inspires evangelistic activity and zeal is a fresh vision of Christ's majesty over all things." — John Dickson
"Let us allow the truth to be the offense, not the way we present it. And let us, whenever we defend the truth, sound like we're not protecting our tribe." — John Dickson
About John Dickson
John Dickson is a historian of early Christianity and Judaism, an ordained Anglican, and the Jean Kvamme Distinguished Professor at Wheaton College. He hosts Undeceptions and is the author of more than 20 books, including Bullies and Saints. More at johndickson.org.
[00:00:01] John Dickson: I want us to lose well. When things go really against us, we lose a vote or we lose a legislation, a church is burnt down or whatever, we should be full of joy. I want us to be like the early church, people who terrible things can happen to us, and we rejoice. Why? Because we have set apart Christ as Lord. We know no matter what happens to us, we've already won.
[00:00:25] Ed Stetzer: On today's episode, my guest is gonna tell me, the dean of Talbot Seminary with the largest apologetics program in the world, why he doesn't like the word apologetics. So this is gonna be a fascinating conversation. My guest is John Dickson. He's an Australian historian, author, speaker, Anglican minister, and media presenter. In his early life, he was actually a professional singer-songwriter. He serves at Wheaton College today, and you'll hear I had the privilege of hiring him there.
[00:00:51] And he earned his PhD in ancient history from Macquarie University, has had different teaching positions around the world. He's the founder of the Australian Centre for Public Christianity and the host of Undeceptions, one of the few podcasts I actually listen to, and it's a podcast devoted to exploring Christianity in a skeptical age. He's written more than 20 books, including Bullies and Saints, which has got a lot of traction and attention. He spent his career thinking about how Christians should speak thoughtfully and historically and persuasively about their faith in an increasingly skeptical and post-Christian culture. And apparently, he thinks we need to rethink some of the language we use to describe that task.
[00:01:28] So John Dickson, welcome to the Exchange, brought to you by Gloo. Let's jump into our conversation.
[00:01:36] Ed Stetzer: John, one of the privileges I had was to hire you. It's kind of a strange thing to hire someone and interview them. And the reason I hired you, you know, we were at the Wheaton College Billy Graham Center, Wheaton College Graduate School, I wanted to get a voice from the future. And I think Australia, in many ways, as a secular context, is of course more secular, down that road of secularism. And so you don't like the word apologist, so I'm gonna ask you to explain why. But you as a, you know, representative of public Christianity in Australia. So now you've lived in the US for three-plus years. What's the distinctions and differences you put, between the two? I mean, there's a lot. Tell us—
[00:02:09] John Dickson: There's a lot. Yeah. You're right that Australia is, you know, maybe 15 years ahead of America on secularization. It's maybe 30 years behind on everything else. But on secularization, we're a little ahead. And yet the trajectory is almost identical. So I have this thing in class where I put up, you know, the graph of the decline in America for the last 20 years, and it's pretty much the same decline as 20 years ago in Australia. Which doesn't really mean that's how America's gonna go. And—
[00:02:48] Ed Stetzer: 'Cause America's been a bit of an outlier on religiosity, for sure.
[00:02:51] John Dickson: Yeah. Catching up though. Look, there's a, you know, there's a little bit of talk about, you know, a revival or about something—
[00:02:55] Ed Stetzer: Sure. We'll talk about that, too.
[00:02:56] John Dickson: And of course the Lord doesn't operate on sociological models, right? So things could get, you know, really bad, and then all of a sudden, boom, you know, the Lord adds to their number daily. So with all those caveats, I do think, America is going the way of Australia. But what's probably gonna happen, and I also see this in Australia, is you've got sort of two gears at the same time. You've got increasing irreligion, and I don't think that's going to stop. It's not like any talk of revival means that irreligion calms down. No, I think it probably gets angrier at the same time as you have sort of an enduring or even a reviving interest in the Christian faith. And it's working out how those two things work together that I think is the fun of what I call public Christianity.
[00:03:46] And I see that in America. Obviously the number of genuine Bible-believing Christians in America is so large. That means something. That means there is a massive base. Whereas in Australia, we might only have 10, 15% of the population sort of actively Christian in a biblical way. You know, it might be double that in America. Even if you were to remove all of the in-name-only Christians, you've surely got 20%, maybe 30%, who are Bible-believing Christians. And what that means is you have enormous resources. I mean, the Christian universities, the seminaries, that are remaining and thriving. I think that's a base that so long as American Bible-believing Christians can work out what does it mean to be in more contested times without being a bully. I have great hope. I am enthusiastic about the future of Christianity in America, but only on that caveat. With what does it mean to be faithful, criticizing Christian in contested times without being a bully?
[00:05:01] Ed Stetzer: So those are the—
[00:05:01] John Dickson: —where you know that all you've got in the end is persuasion. And we could add, you know, prayer, service, and suffering. But it seems to me if the American church can rely on persuasion more than cultural heritage, laws, celebrity, but just rely on the power of persuasion, I'm excited, and I wanna be part of it. I wanna jump into that contest and help other evangelicals jump into the contest with prayer, persuasion, service, and suffering.
[00:05:40] Ed Stetzer: And you talk about this, again, we're gonna talk a little bit about your book, Bullies and Saints: An Honest Look at the Good and the Evil of Christian History. We're actually having this conversation at Oxford University. We're at Wycliffe Hall. You and I, teach together. I host this annual, I guess it's an ISW, In-Service Week, but it's basically the Church of England requires an evangelism class or training for all the ordinands, but we bring over Talbot students.
[00:06:05] You come over and you do some lecture. The Anglican ordinands, independent students are there. The UK is, I guess, statistically sort of between the US and Australia, is a good way of articulate it. You mentioned the idea of revival. You know, they're actually talking about here a report last year that they released about a quiet revival and significant increases as a percentage. You know, it's, you know, going from 4 to 6% is a significant increase in the UK context. Would you use the term from what you've seen in America, would you use the term revival to describe the current moment?
[00:06:39] Ed Stetzer: Okay. In— I should disclose, neither do I.
[00:06:43] John Dickson: Either in Britain or in the US. I'm appreciative they put the word quiet ahead of it.
[00:06:46] Ed Stetzer: Yeah. But statistically, what I say to many Americans is— I mean, a quiet— What is—
[00:06:53] John Dickson: A quiet tsunami. But I—
[00:06:55] Ed Stetzer: —I say is— I mean, it doesn't work if you're asking if there's a revival, there's not yet a revival. You would know.
[00:07:01] John Dickson: There are hints of renewed interest in Christian faith.
[00:07:04] Ed Stetzer: And that, I think, is a dis- important distinction. Unpack that for us, 'cause I agree with you.
[00:07:08] John Dickson: I think it's a, partly, a result of bottoming out. So the decline has been dramatic. They're down to about 46% in the last census of Brits who say they're Christian in any way. You know, whereas in America, it's nearly 70%. In Australia, it's 44%. So once you get down to those numbers, you're sort of bottoming out of those who just use Christian as a name.
[00:07:35] Ed Stetzer: That— I'm not Jewish, I'm not atheist—
[00:07:37] John Dickson: I'm a Christian. And there was, used to be a little bit of credibility in that. You know, in business, in politics, to say you're Christian. Well, I think that's bottomed out. And what that means statistically is that when it really has bottomed out, you are gonna see a bump. Because once nominal Christianity has sort of disappeared, all you've got is the growing Christianity, and so you're gonna see these little pockets of, oh, you know, next year, there are more people going to church than there were last year.
[00:08:03] So you're gonna get little bits and pieces of that, and I think that's great. There's also an exhaustion about secularism that is more prominent here than it is in the US, because Britain is more, further along in secularism. And so people are tired of the vacuous, nihilistic lack of hope in secularism. So people scratch around and go, "Maybe that old thing we used to be into, maybe church does have something." And so people are, you know, sticking their nose in church. They're downloading Bible apps. They're listening to Christian music. I think it's way too early to tell whether there's a Britain-wide return to church.
[00:08:57] There are just little pockets, little signals, and frankly, next year we might find those signals are gone. Because, you know, there was that massive Pew Research study from 2024 in the US that found that there was something like a 1.5% increase in those who say they were Christians over the previous years, and there was lots of reporting. There was a New York Times article saying, you know, "Are we beginning to see the return of Christianity?" But you drill down into the article, and the researchers said, "No. Basically, it's the bottoming out of nominal Christianity." The growth of some brands of Christianity have just lifted the numbers ever so slightly, but the numbers are so dramatically bad amongst young Americans that really, unless something dramatic happens, the next survey they do five years from now, when that cohort has moved up—
[00:09:56] Ed Stetzer: We call it generational cohort replacement.
[00:09:57] John Dickson: —way more worrying.
[00:09:57] Ed Stetzer: Yeah, I mean, the trends, the bigger picture trends are not encouraging. It seems to a continued growth of secularism. There are some places, you know, I have, my editor's column at Outreach Magazine is about is there a revival, and the conclusion I make is, again, if you are asking if there's a revival, there's not yet a revival. You'd know. But there are some interesting trends.
[00:10:21] You know, Barna's a smaller, it's not a small data set, but it's a smaller data set than Pew, and we're actually seeing some movement in church attendance. We're seeing some movement in people who say they have a commitment to Christ that's important, which is a very easy question to answer yes to. But even those maybe point back to return to where it was 10 years ago. So again, not, it's not, unless you think there was a revival in 2015, it's not a revival. But I don't wanna rain on anyone's parade.
[00:10:49] John Dickson: No. I want a revival. Yeah.
[00:10:50] Ed Stetzer: It's like we sound—
[00:10:50] John Dickson: I long for it to be the case. In fact, it's because I long for it to be the case, I don't wanna get ahead of— I wanna know for sure that it's happening. 'Cause I think meanwhile I just wanna be preaching the gospel.
[00:11:02] Ed Stetzer: Right, and that's our call. So what I don't wanna do is end up with a triumphalistic, "Well, right now everyone's coming to church," 'cause they're not. But it's an opportunity for us to show and share the love of Jesus. So talk to us about some of the thing. You're an historian, which is a little strange because you're, we think of you as an apologist. You don't like the word apologist. You know, I mean, again, we have the largest apologetics program in the world at the Talbot School of Theology. Lord bless you and keep you. So I need you to be nice towards apologists. So why, let, quickly make the distinction between apologist and a public Christian that you are.
[00:11:32] John Dickson: Well, apologetics has, obviously not at Talbot, but everywhere else. How about we go with that?
[00:11:39] Ed Stetzer: You're allowed to come on my program and not agree.
[00:11:41] John Dickson: It has a reputation for not actually being an academic discipline. Whereas they use history to make arguments in favor, only ever in favor of Christianity. They don't actually do history. They use science only ever to make a positive case. They don't actually do the discipline of science. And so those who are in the disciplines, philosophy, science, history, look at apologetics and say, "It's not a discipline." It's almost the opposite of a discipline because all it is, is grabbing the bits that are in our favor from all the various disciplines, and that's a real problem.
[00:12:20] Ed Stetzer: To be ready to give an answer to the question? Yes. That seems like something we should do.
[00:12:25] John Dickson: I know, but if you're only using bits from the disciplines, the real disciplines that are in your favor and not listening to the bits that aren't, it's only gonna take some smart doubter listening to you and going, "Hang on. But I've read three other things." "And you're not telling the whole story." I mean, I often give the example of people saying there's more evidence for Jesus Christ than Julius Caesar. This has sort of broken out as a meme as it were, and it's based on a work long ago that pointed out that there are more manuscript copies of the New Testament than there are copies of Caesar's Gallic Wars. So if you say, you know, we've got several thousand copies of the New Testament fragments, we've got five copies of Gallic Wars, Jesus wins. Well, that's nuts to a historian because Julius Caesar has coins, inscriptions, multiple people in the time speaking about Julius Caesar. I mean, frankly, there is way more evidence for Julius Caesar than Jesus Christ.
[00:13:28] I don't doubt Jesus Christ. Not, nor by the way, do secular ancient historians. But to just grab a piece of historical data and then make a point about, you know, Jesus wins, it's a problem.
[00:13:45] And my other thing, my other problem with apologetics is just the word because you can do apologetics well.
[00:13:53] Ed Stetzer: That's what I wanna hear. Of course you can. That's what we're teaching people, but keep going.
[00:13:56] John Dickson: You know, you just have to be genuinely engaged with historical, scientific, philosophical scholarship. But there's another problem, and it's coming your way, and that is the word is almost only ever used in the secular world to mean a controversial propagandist. So I'm collecting media examples of the use of the word apologetics, apologist, apologism, and The Atlantic, New York Times, the British Times, BBC, I have many examples where they use the word like this: "So and so is a Putin apologist." "So and so is doing apologetics for big pharma." And, I even saw a pedophilia apologetics. Now, they're not thinking of the Christian use of the word, but the word now means propaganda. And in the Oxford English Dictionary, the primary example they give of apologist is an apologist for fascism in the 1930s.
[00:15:05] Well, I'm just saying the word is a damaged word. And so what do we wanna do? We wanna make Christ public. That's why I use the word public Christianity. I'm not on a crusade to get everyone using that. I just don't wanna use words that are triggering to the very people we're trying to reach.
[00:15:25] Ed Stetzer: Okay. To me, in some ways, it sounds like you're against bad apologetics, which I agree with. The term you have a concern about as well. Let's talk about evangelism today. That word, I mean... And by the way, that word's used by people, you know, evangelists for bad things as well. I mean, I think Apple actually hired one person at one point who was an evangelist for Apple, so it's used, misused. But we're actually here, at Oxford, and we're teaching a course in evangelism. How do we reclaim the word evangelism if that's got a negative word as well?
[00:15:54] John Dickson: Part of the difference is evangelism is, the word is used in the New Testament in exactly the way we're using it. The word apologetics isn't. I know we've all got 1 Peter 3:15. There's no way—
[00:16:04] Ed Stetzer: Don't, no, and don't forget 1 Peter 3:15. We like that.
[00:16:06] John Dickson: Yeah. But, you know, always be prepared to give an apologia. But this is— Although—
[00:16:10] Ed Stetzer: I mean— Okay. But I think we disagree on the apologetics thing, but that's okay. We disagree in class sometimes. But talk to me about evangelism.
[00:16:15] John Dickson: But there's no way Peter expected an apologetics ministry. It's just the normal Greek term for defending something. Whereas the word evangelism and gospel occurs 130 times in the New Testament in exactly the way we still use it, that is declaring the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus for our salvation. So we are stuck with that, and in a way, I don't think it's as damaged a word because it's so associated with the church but for very few examples that people, when they hear the word evangelism, they mean that thing where Christians are always trying to tell you about. Whereas apologetics now has a life of its own. The word has a life of its own only in this negative sense. So I love evangelism. I think of myself actually, primarily, theologically, as an evangelist.
[00:17:05] Ed Stetzer: I don't know, it seems to me that evangelism has maybe fallen on hard times in... If you go back, I... You know, you're, you weren't in an American evangelical world, but if you go back to when I was a brand-new believer, they had whole schools people go to train eva- the Billy Graham Schools for Evangelism. I actually met at Wheaton and at other places, and the idea was that everyone... I mean, you had things like EE, the Evangelism Explosion, and I just don't hear... There were times when evangelism conferences sort of filled up the whole place, and yet now it's sort of like, I'm, people are almost embarrassed to talk about it. Is that my perception, or do you see it as well? And what do we do about—
[00:17:39] John Dickson: I think it's definitely the case. Well, we don't abandon the word. But I do think we need to fill the word with fresh meaning and with fresh ways that don't sound propagandistic, that don't sound like we're bullies. And there have been so many evangelists that have been sort of caught out doing naughty things that there is a little bit of that sort of shade cast over it.
[00:18:10] Ed Stetzer: You know, I think we could reclaim the apologist meaning. But anyway, we better stop that. Let's just focus on that here as well. So— Maybe. And I think evangelist, I mean, it almost sounds like shyster to a lot of people. Like, if you're on a plane and someone, and you're an evangelist, someone asks what you are, that might not be what you say. But how do we reclaim evangelism as a core value in the life of the church and the life of the Christian?
[00:18:30] John Dickson: My feeling is that, first and foremost, it's a spiritual crisis. It seems to me the thing that inspires evangelistic activity and zeal is a fresh vision of Christ's majesty over all things. And although Christians, you know, tick that box, "Yes, I believe Jesus is Lord of heaven and everything," if it's not really seeped into your heart, to the point where you might be in a lecture with your university professor, and he's criticizing Christianity.
[00:19:10] If you're not sitting there going, "Yeah, but I know Jesus reigns. Jesus owns this room," not in a smug way, not in an arrogant way, but in a really confident way, almost to the point where you feel sorry for your atheist professor, lecturer. Not the insecure kind of, "No, no, no, no," but a kind of, "Oh, Lord, have mercy”
[00:19:15] Ed Stetzer: That's someone who's deeply confident. But I don't see much of that anymore.
[00:19:15] John Dickson: Yes. I think a lot of Christians are beaten down by force of culture, argument, our own bad behavior, so that we are shy. We know theologically he, that Jesus must be Lord of heaven and Earth, but I don't think it's touched our hearts.
[00:19:54] And to go back to 1 Peter 3:15, what Peter does there, I think is the solution. He says, "Do not fear what they fear," what everyone else fears. "But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord, always being prepared to give an answer." So it's the connection between setting apart Christ as Lord in your heart. The degree to which we've done that is the degree to which we'll step up and give an answer. And then if you think of the Great Commission, it's exactly the same logic. In fact, I'm sure Peter got it from the, 'cause he—
[00:20:28] Ed Stetzer: You would think.
[00:20:29] John Dickson: He was there, you know, when Jesus said, "All authority in—
[00:20:33] Ed Stetzer: In heaven— He starts with that, right me. Such a, and such an overlooked part of the Great Commission, reverses that Matthew— Remember when Jesus, you know, Satan takes Him up this high pinnacle, "All this can be yours." At the end, He says, "All this already is mine."
[00:20:47] John Dickson: Therefore go make disciples of all nations. Unless you're utterly in your heart convinced He is Lord of heaven and Earth, the therefore doesn't, there's a disconnect in that therefore. And then I, if you think of the, probably the most evangelistically oriented Old Testament passage, I think it's Psalm 96. Declare His salvation among all the nations.
[00:21:11] And then the next word is because, for, ki in Hebrew. Declare His salvation among all the nations for great is the Lord and most worthy of praise. He is to be feared above all gods. All the gods of the nations are nothing, it says, but the Lord made the heavens. So everywhere I look, this is a long-winded way of answering your question. Everywhere I look in scripture, the evangelistic activity depends on a spiritual revival. A sense of who really owns the room. And I honestly think that if we were, you know, to focus, maybe not exclusively but dramatically on reviving people's sense that Jesus really is in charge, we would see natural evangelism.
[00:22:03] Ed Stetzer: Yeah. One of the things we do in this class, you know, I invite you in to come with me even though we disagree on some things, and then we do it in front of everybody. And part of the reason is I think that that's helpful learning. You know, the students at Wycliffe can handle it, the students at Talbot can handle it. And one of the places that we disagree is even back to... And you're an early church historian, so I tread lightly. But I do have Michael Green on my side, who wrote Evangelism in the Early Church, and he talks about how the early Christians sort of gossiped the gospel, is his famous phrase, and they individually kept telling people.
[00:22:36] And for me, I want that to be something that people take up on their own. You're a little more cautious and you're saying, "No, it's more multifaceted than that." Kind of explain a little bit.
[00:22:45] John Dickson: Problem is evidence. We don't have much evidence. And, I mean, I love Michael Green's work. I love his passion.
[00:22:53] Ed Stetzer: Here at Wycliffe where we are right now.
[00:22:54] John Dickson: But I think any honest appraisal of his book would agree there's very, very little evidence that that was the case, that individual Christians evangelized their neighbors.
[00:23:05] Ed Stetzer: He makes a bold claim. I mean, they gossiped the gospel in the laundries and—
[00:23:09] John Dickson: Yeah. But yeah, but then when you actually go to the primary sources he cites, it's just not, it's not there.
[00:23:13] Ed Stetzer: So what do you think happened, and what does it mean for us today?
[00:23:17] John Dickson: I've no doubt that Christians were ready to answer questions. And I've got really good evidence from what we call catechism in the ancient world. The ancient church, if you wanted to know about Jesus, you wanted to be a Christian, they invited you to hours of lessons. It's like Alpha on—
[00:23:34] Ed Stetzer: Yeah, Alpha being this evangelism class that's sort of known around the world.
[00:23:38] John Dickson: You know, you would do well over 100 hours of lessons—
[00:23:43] Ed Stetzer: If you're thinking about being a Christian, come to our 100-hour—
[00:23:45] John Dickson: I know. It's crazy.
[00:23:47] Ed Stetzer: But it changed the world.
[00:23:48] John Dickson: It changed the world. And we have some of the lectures that have survived, and what we find is that while the lecturer is teaching Christian doctrine to these wannabe Christians, he's also saying, "Now, your Jewish friends will criticize you on this point. Here are three things to say." And then he'll say, "And your pagan neighbors, they'll criticize you for different things. Here are three things to say." So we know for sure Christians were being prepared to give answers for the faith. But most of the evidence that we have from the ancient world is Christians, prayed for the salvation of their neighbors.
[00:24:25] They lived a godly life, deliberately, consciously trying to draw people in, and they were extremely generous in supporting the work of the gospel. And we have wonderful sermons from Augustine at the end of the 4th century, beginning of the 5th century, where he says to his congregation, "I have no doubt that there will be no non-Christians left if you live the life worthy of the gospel." "They will see the gospel in your lives." Or we have Chrysostom, the greatest preacher of antiquity, saying to the wealthy, "You need to go on evangelistic journeys just like Philip the evangelist." This is from his sermon on Acts chapter 8. And he says, "And what do I mean? You must use your money not to buy more baths and more servants, but to employ an evangelist. Build a church on your property." So the way the early church grew in antiquity was in more subtle ways. Yes, every Christian was on the lookout for opportunities to give an answer for the faith, but it's these other dimensions, prayer, godly life, and money.
[00:25:28] Ed Stetzer: Well, prayer, godly life, giving, and generosity. But so then what does, like a normal believer, what would you anticipate, expect? What would, advice would you give? You preach at churches all around the world. What do you say this is what you should do so that the message of the gospel goes forth?
[00:25:43] John Dickson: First, set apart Christ as Lord in heart.
[00:25:46] Ed Stetzer: So that lordship comes again and again, a different life, a changed life.
[00:25:51] John Dickson: You've got to know he's in charge of every room you're gonna find yourself in, and then you'll be—
[00:25:55] Ed Stetzer: And there's a quiet confidence that comes from that.
[00:25:57] John Dickson: —the best version of yourself. Yeah. And then I'd say pray your heart out. Because the way the New Testament describes it, when you're praying for your neighbor to become a Christian or you're praying for the success of the gospel preacher, it's as if you yourself are preaching. And then when you give money, don't think of it as a secular second-string activity. Paul calls it koinōnia eis to euangélion, partnership into the gospel. So Paul uses this heightened language that giving money is actual partnership with him as a preacher, and that's the way to see it. And then, of course, you wanna live such an actively godly life in front of people.
[00:26:36] Not just being a nice human, but looking for opportunities to serve, to be humble, to give yourself for others, because that kind of life looks like the gospel. What is the gospel? God, the Lord, entered into the world in Jesus Christ, lived the life we could never live, gave Himself on a cross for our sins. So the Christian life that looks like giving yourself for the unworthy is the life that points immediately to the gospel. And then if you're ready to give an answer, you will get questions. And I think we can trust God to use those things to build His kingdom because that's exactly how the early church did it, combined with a willingness to suffer.
[00:27:16] So I mean, I often confuse people by saying, "I want us to lose well." And what I mean is when things go really against us, we lose a vote or we lose a legislation, you know, a church is burnt down or whatever, we should be cheerful. We should be full of joy. The word you find connected with persecution in the New Testament most often is rejoice. I want us to be like the early church, people who terrible things can happen to us, and we rejoice. Why? Because we have set apart Christ as Lord. We know no matter what happens to us, we've already won. We're the death and resurrection people, so we stand up, smile sweetly at our persecutors, and invite them to know Jesus. They smack us down, we stand up, we smile sweetly, and we invite them to Jesus. That's the model.
[00:28:05] Ed Stetzer: That kind of seems like a loser's mentality in the new time we live in. And I know that's part of your concern, is how we react to the cultural moments, right? So talk to us a little bit about how... Why would you persuade Christians that that's a better way, and how to, like... And again, we talked about this. I was on your podcast, on Deceptions, very well-known, well-listened to podcast, and one of the things I... In that conversation, you were asking a lot about American evangelicalism.
[00:28:30] And because we have more influence, we can actually speak into laws being changed, and those laws being changed, I think good laws can be changed to make the world more like Jesus wants it to be. I wanna, you know, I want things to be more right than wrong, and sometimes cultural power, which you're a bit askew, but cultural power we evangelicals have, it can be used for good.
[00:28:52] Now, to be clear, I have no unpublished thought. I don't think evangelicals are always using their cultural power for good. So people can see all that. So help me to think about... In Australia, sure, you're... You can talk about anything you want, and nobody cares as much in Australia if you're an evangelical. Here, with more cultural influence, should we use that influence for good to change laws and more, and how?
[00:29:13] John Dickson: Of course. But it comes down to persuasion. And prayer and service, suffering.
[00:29:17] Ed Stetzer: Tell... Those four things keep coming up. They keep coming up. And those are historical things for you. Those are things that Christians have done over 2,000 years.
[00:29:23] John Dickson: They're also things you find in the Book of—
[00:29:26] Ed Stetzer: No question. But you find more than that in the Book of Acts, but yes, no question.
[00:29:29] John Dickson: I think it's pretty much what you find in the Book of Acts. But when I say I confuse people by saying, "Hey, you need to lose well," I'm not saying you go out of your way to try and lose.
[00:29:39] Ed Stetzer: It's not, "Hey, this is— Losing is great."
[00:29:40] John Dickson: It's when— It's when you lose, lose well. That's really what I meant. So it's—
[00:29:43] Ed Stetzer: Of the moment because of the lordship of Christ.
[00:29:47] John Dickson: Currently in some parts of the world, it looks like we're really anxious that when we lose a vote or some cultural moment, we look like we're super grumpy.
[00:29:59] Ed Stetzer: I think that's a fair description of American evangelicals.
[00:30:01] John Dickson: And the world looks on and thinks, "That's pretty insecure." It's like they don't feel happy unless they've got the reins of power. Whereas what I want us to be doing is persuading on every issue. So on all of the conservative issues, the trans issue, abortion, so on, I'm all for—
[00:30:22] Ed Stetzer: So you're still in the public sphere?
[00:30:24] John Dickson: Sure. I mean, my Undeceptions podcast is entirely about—
[00:30:27] Ed Stetzer: Yes, it is.
[00:30:28] John Dickson: And we have episodes on all those issues.
[00:30:30] Ed Stetzer: We all... Most of us do, but not everyone does.
[00:30:33] John Dickson: No, but I mean, I'm absolutely committed to that task. But I want those who don't yet believe to listen to the way I talk about an issue and not get the slightest sense that I'm speaking like I'm their pastor, and they have to obey my spiritual—
[00:30:50] Ed Stetzer: You're recognizing that they are not followers of Jesus and treating them accordingly?
[00:30:50] John Dickson: Yes.
[00:30:56] Ed Stetzer: What's the right way to describe it?
[00:30:57] John Dickson: I'm trying to win them to the grace and good sense of Christ. But I don't do it in a way that says, that is threatening or anything like that. So when Christians bubble up to the surface and have power in politics or what, media or whatever, I think it actually matters even more that they sound gentle and respectful. This is what 1 Peter says, after all, right? "Always be prepared to give an answer, but with gentleness and respect." Because when you actually have power, it's very easy to come across like a bully.
[00:31:31] But it, I think when you have that cultural or political power but you speak with a, the sweetness of Christ, with the compassion of Christ, where you're not relying on the power you have, but you see the power you have as a platform to make the best case, I love it. And when things don't go your way, you don't spit the dummy. Is that an expression one uses?
[00:31:52] Ed Stetzer: I've never heard that before. Okay. Well— Spit the dummy?
[00:31:55] John Dickson: Our English friends will have heard it. In Australia, it's spit the dummy. You know, when a baby gets really angry and has a little, what do you call it? A—
[00:32:02] Ed Stetzer: Pacifier. Paci. Spit the Pacifier.
[00:32:04] John Dickson: The pacifier. The passy.
[00:32:05] Ed Stetzer: There you go. So to make it sound pithy, it's be spit the paci. We're two nations divided by a common language. That was Churchill, but yeah.
[00:32:12] John Dickson: When we don't, when we make the case intelligently, graciously, and so on, I think we're gonna be more persuasive because people, as soon as people don't realize it's just my tribe against your tribe, they go into a mode of listening to persuasion. There is something actually in the brain science that if someone speaks like tribalistically, like, "I want this so that my tribe can be above your tribe," the person listening to you, suddenly all these very old and reptilian parts of the brain go tribal. Tribal. Doesn't matter what you say. "I'm protecting my tribe." But if it sounds more like, "I really care for you, I care for our nation."
[00:32:59] Ed Stetzer: I even care for some of the same subjects you care for.
[00:33:01] John Dickson: Yep. Yeah. And honestly, I wish this good for our society. When people hear that, they're more open to it.
[00:33:08] Ed Stetzer: So it sounds like you want people to be winsome, and you know, that's very 2010. We're kind of beyond that. People are... Winsome is bad now. There's a war on winsome.
[00:33:16] John Dickson: I don't use the word "winsome."
[00:33:18] Ed Stetzer: Because? Because of the current debate about it?
[00:33:20] John Dickson: Well, it's never, it's not a word I've ever used much. I'm thinking of using it again. I'll tell you why in a second. But, I don't use the word "winsome." And yes, you're right, people have turned right against winsomeness. It's not really a biblical word. Right? What we do have in scripture repeatedly is to speak to the outsider with grace, blessing, respect, gentleness. Never sarcasm, grumpiness, arrogant, never any of those. Smugness, no. It's grace, gentleness, respect, et cetera. So people call that winsomeness. It's just apostolic instruction. But the reason I'm thinking of using the word "winsome"—
[00:34:02] Ed Stetzer: You see, I wanna know now, 'cause I'm pro-winsome.
[00:34:04] John Dickson: —just to be subversive. Well, etymologically it means joy. Well, hello. I would have thought speaking with joy thing is profoundly—
[00:34:17] Ed Stetzer: Can win some if you're winsome, even though that's so not etymologically what it means. But, you know, I think, 'cause I'm of the view that winsome is not the culture strategy, it's a way of Jesus. It's being in that Christ-like... Doesn't matter. But I think right now, I think people need to say, "Well, how should I speak in a culture that's as divided as ours? How do I be a person of character, but also a person of making right moral choices? So how do I simultaneously speak up for what's right, when even in the speaking of what's right, that's offensive to people?"
[00:34:49] John Dickson: It is. But let it, let us allow the truth to be the offense, not the way we present it. And let us, whenever we defend the truth, sound like we're not protecting our tribe. We think this is good for you. I want you to know this. I want you to enjoy this blessing. That's why I wanna persuade you to it. It's not because I want more space on the patch.
[00:35:15] Ed Stetzer: Okay. And I agree whole-heartedly, but let's take that to one of the most difficult conversations. You mentioned transgenderism. So you got a person who's maybe struggled with gender dysphoria, has now decided to transition, and you say to them, "I want you to flourish as, you know, your, as the male God made you to be." That's not how they're gonna receive it. So is there a way to be like you're talking about to somebody who sees this as a justice issue and you on the wrong side and the oppressor side?
[00:35:45] John Dickson: I don't wanna bring this back to promoting, but—
[00:35:48] Ed Stetzer: No, I—
[00:35:49] John Dickson: —have a, we have an episode called Transgender, where we have not only a top psychologist who specializes in this, but also a transgender woman, that is a male, who's transitioned. This is exactly the question I put to them. We went back and forth about their experience, but in the end, I asked, "What do you think of someone like me, a conservative, a Christian?" Who honestly believes you're a male, but will nonetheless treat you with all of the grace and gentleness and friendship, and I'd have you over for dinner, and we've had a wonderful hour together here in the studio. What do you think of that person who's nonetheless not persuaded that you are a woman in any sense? And this person, Dana, said, "You know, that would be fine if there were more of that."
[00:36:54] But what so often happens is the truth that I hold, that Dana is a male, leads to quite bully behavior and exclusionary activity and so on, and that's where the problems emerge. But Dana said to me, "If you are able to do what you just said, I and many trans people I know would be delighted."
[00:37:17] Ed Stetzer: Okay, let's talk a little bit about your book. The book is Bullies and Saints: An Honest Look at the Good and Evil of Christian History. You work hard to avoid whitewashing and blackwashing of— I mean, that's sort of the theme and the whole point of the book. It's been interesting to watch the response. I mean, I've seen, you know, it featured in CNN and all kinds of other places, so obviously it's gotten a great response. So why do you think it's important that we see the reality of both of these truths?
[00:37:44] John Dickson: For theological and historical reasons. Theologically, Christians know that we're not good through and through. We're the ones who believe that we're rotten, that there's something dark in the heart, even of a Christian, even of a Christian leader. And it was our Lord who said to his disciples, not to the Pharisees, "You hypocrite, why do you worry about the speck in your neighbor's eye when there is a log in your eye?" Right? So I think that gives us theological permission to own the logs in our eyes.
[00:38:19] Ed Stetzer: You sound like a good Calvinist at this moment. You know, just acknowledge the depravity that's there.
[00:38:23] John Dickson: Well, thank you for that. So and then there's the history. It is just a fact that some Christians through the ages have done terrible things.
[00:38:34] Ed Stetzer: It's hard to miss it.
[00:38:36] John Dickson: There was in 415, just at the dawn of Christianity gaining a little bit more power, a mob that went and dragged a female philosopher out into the street, and I won't give the details, but they murdered her very, very publicly. And the man who led the mob was the man who read the Bible in the church in Alexandria every Sunday. Peter the Reader. Now, there's nothing we can do about that. That really happened. It really happened. And I could list story after story like that.
[00:39:08] But why don't I then become totally blackwashing? It's true. Because actually that's a good example. What Peter and his mob did, we know about it. We know, we have primary sources about that event. Why? Because Christians everywhere else slammed what those Christians and praised this pagan female philosopher as a sweet, intelligent, wonderful woman. So that right there tells you, you've got sometimes Christians behaving very badly, but there is built into Christianity this self-corrective mechanism where we notice the log in our eye, and the primary sources we have about this incident are proof that Christians were outraged and repented and were sorrowful and indeed not anti this pagan woman, but very pro this woman. And you could take that in every era of Christianity.
[00:40:05] There are failings, but what so often happens is someone is reading their Gospels one day and then looking at the church and going, "Hang on, we don't look like this." And they ring the alarm supposed to be who we are, yeah. And because there's this built-in self-corrective mechanism, and because we don't believe we're good through and through and only getting better, people listen to the alarm bell and repent and a renewal breaks out. And I see that everywhere in Christian history. So it gives me great hope that although Christians can depart from the beautiful melody of Jesus, there are those who still remember that melody and call us back to it.
[00:40:45] Ed Stetzer: Yeah, and the melody line is a central theme that you use, this idea of the melody line as a way to measure the church's faithfulness across the centuries. So how did that framework shape the way you evaluated both the light and dark moments of history?
[00:40:57] John Dickson: Yeah. So there is no doubt in my mind that Jesus wrote the most beautiful tune: "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who mistreat you," which he took all the way to his cross. This is not just an arbitrary ethic, this is the shape of his whole ministry. Loving enemies, us, by giving himself. So if that's the melody, then that's what the Christian life should look like, too. And to the degree Christians depart from that, we can say they are Christians, but they're not acting Christianly. But to the degree that they come back and they look like that, they build hospitals, they start charities, and all the other things. They were the first to start trying to free slaves. I know that's a very fraught topic, but it is the fact that Christians, not ancient pagans or Romans, certainly not recent secularists, it was Christians who were trying their hardest to end slavery. These are all Christians singing in tune with the melody.
[00:42:02] And when our skeptical friends point out the terrible things Christians have done, I wanna say, "You're absolutely right," but when they do this, are they following Jesus? Just on your own estimation of Jesus, are they following Jesus or disobeying Jesus? And I've found the most honest skeptics say, "Oh, well, it's obvious they're disobeying Jesus." And I say to them, "Well, isn't your problem then that Christians aren't Christian enough? What you're saying to me is you want Christians to be more Christian." So we're on the same page. I want Christians to be more Christians. You want people to be more—
[00:42:36] Ed Stetzer: More Christian, yeah. So you argue a lot of even the world's humanitarian instincts. You talk about charity, dignity, equality, all emerge from the Christian worldview, whatever term you wanna use. Explain it to me.
[00:42:47] John Dickson: Clearly the ancient world was very hierarchical. They did not believe every human being was equal and precious, and their argument was very logical. An ancient Greek looked at... You know, they would say, "You've got a weak, sick cow, and you've got a glorious milk-producing cow. Are you telling me they're both equal? That I should go down to the shop and buy them for the same price?" And they would then look at humans. "You've got smart, powerful, good-looking, healthy. You're saying they're the same value as..." Right? Jews came along and said, "Yeah, everyone's made in the image of God."
[00:43:31] That idea, everyone made in the image of God, was explosive. But Jewish communities in antiquity kept it to themselves. And their social services were for themselves. We don't have evidence of Jewish, early Jewish hospitals or Jewish food programs for non-Jews. What happened is Christianity just inherited that doctrine of the image of God in every human being, loved by God, and universalized it precisely because Jesus said this thing is for all the nations, for all the kinds of people that you'll ever meet. So Christianity, in one way you could say, is a universalizing Jewish ethic with a few other things added.
[00:44:16] You know, the idea that God would give himself on a [TEXT MISSING?] for us, that can, that's an offense even within Judaism. So that supercharges the notion that I should be giving myself for everyone, because everyone is equally loved by God, equally an object of his care. And this started, as I said, the attempts to free slaves, the first hospitals in the 370s. You know, charitable works, the beginning of schooling for everyone, rich and poor, boys and girls, starts in the church.
[00:44:52] Ed Stetzer: Last question, just got a couple minutes left. You, at the end of the book, you call to a return to humility, generosity of Jesus, some of the themes we've been talking about here. Practically speaking, what would it look like if we actually embodied that melody line again?
[00:45:11] John Dickson: This is such a profound question, it's so hard to give an immediate response. What would it mean? It would mean we would become known as the people who wanna give themselves for others. So if you sit down with an average evangelical in America or wherever and say, "Tell me what you think is the gospel," nine out of 10, I'm hoping, would say something like, "Jesus died on a cross for us and rose again." Do you reckon?
[00:45:38] Ed Stetzer: Sure. I hope. Some variant, yeah.
[00:45:41] John Dickson: So I would say to them, "So what does the gospel life of the Christian look like?" And I think they'd have to say, "It would look like giving yourself for others, even if they don't deserve it." So if we were to do this, we ought to be able to ask skeptics in America, "What's the first thing you think of when you think of Christians?" "Oh, they're the people who give themselves for others." That's what I want. Genuine public Christianity... That's the effect it should have. And there'll be people who hate us for it. We smile sweetly. We be winsome and joyful. But then there are others who will flock to the message of the God who gave himself for others.