Christians often treat doubt as a liability they carry alone. Alister McGrath argues that every worldview rests on beliefs no one can prove, and that recognizing this changes how the church speaks to a skeptical culture. In a conversation recorded at Wycliffe Hall in Oxford, McGrath makes the case from his book Why We Believe that belief is both reasonable and existentially necessary, because meaning, moral value, and purpose lie beyond what science can establish, and that doubt belongs to every worldview, atheism included. Ed Stetzer presses him on the objections skeptics raise: that the Christian lens is a comforting fantasy, that assigning science and faith separate questions amounts to compartmentalizing, and that the resurrection asks too much of a modern mind. McGrath answers by treating science as a tool built for specific questions, drawing on C.S. Lewis's image of Christianity as the sun by which we see everything else, and arguing that a culture of throwaway worldviews has sent people looking for a faith with roots in history and grounding in metaphysics. Alister McGrath is emeritus Andreas Idreos Professor of Science and Religion at the University of Oxford and a former scientist whose books engage atheism, apologetics, and the writings of C.S. Lewis. His recent book is Why We Believe: Finding Meaning in Uncertain Times.
Alister McGrath says no one can prove what matters most, so atheists and Christians alike live by belief and live with doubt.
The conversation
Can Christians hold beliefs they cannot prove?
McGrath begins from a claim about human life: meaning, moral value, and purpose cannot be established by reason or the scientific method, yet people do not flourish without them. He extends the point to atheism, recalling that when he pressed Richard Dawkins on whether atheism could be proven, Dawkins conceded it could not.
Does a Christian worldview compete with science?
Ed raised the objection McGrath's debate partners would make: that the Christian lens is a fantasy laid over the observable world. McGrath answers that science is a tool built for particular questions, and that using it to settle moral values is like using a thermometer to find the meaning of life. McGrath closes on what he calls Christianity's existential payload, a truth that changes a life.
From the conversation
"There are certain places it cannot go. It cannot talk about things like the meaning of life. It cannot talk about moral values, for example, because these both lie beyond the scope of the scientific method." Alister McGrath
"I can prove really shallow truths, but not deep truths of meaning or moral value or purpose." Alister McGrath
"The great big pictures of life which held sway for so long are just being junked, and there's nothing obvious that's going to replace them." Alister McGrath
"Doubt is saying, 'I need to go into this deeper. My present understanding of this is not good enough.' Doubt is an invitation to explore, to go deeper." Alister McGrath
About Alister McGrath
Alister McGrath is emeritus Andreas Idreos Professor of Science and Religion at the University of Oxford and President of the Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics. He holds doctorates in molecular biophysics, theology, and intellectual history, and his books include Dawkins' God and C.S. Lewis: A Life. His latest book is Why We Believe: Finding Meaning in Uncertain Times.
Website: https://alistermcgrath.weebly.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AlisterMcGrath
Book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/086154921X
[00:00:00] Alister McGrath: My argument is really that to appreciate this world to its maximum, to live life the full, we need many toolkits, and one of them has to be Christianity because that gives you the really important answers that we need to live meaningfully.
[00:00:18] Ed Stetzer: So this is fascinating. A secular publisher approached one of the world's leading Christian theologians and asked him to write a book about a surprisingly timely question: Why do we believe? Not simply why do Christians believe, but why do human beings believe at all? You know, in an age when science and evidence and skepticism are prized, why does belief remain such an essential part of how we understand our lives and the world? Well, that theologian is my guest today on The Exchange.
[00:00:45] Now, his name is Alister McGrath, and Alister is one of the world's leading Christian theologians, apologists, scholars on the relationship between science and religion. He serves at Oxford University in both an emeritus role and a senior research fellow role. He originally studied chemistry at Oxford and then earned his doctorate in molecular biophysics before turning to theology, where he got another doctorate. He's since written extensively on science and faith, theology and apologetics, C.S. Lewis, becoming one of the world's most influential Christian thinkers at the intersection of these worlds. The result is really now an invitation from a secular publisher for his new book. It's called Why We Believe: Finding Meaning in Uncertain Times.
[00:01:27] Now, we live in a culture that's been wrestling with some of the most basic human questions, particularly in these uncertain times, as the subtitle says. You know, what gives life meaning? What can we actually know? What do we do with doubt? And as a Christian, what can our faith offer and as a credible account of reality in a skeptical age? So Alister McGrath joins us here on The Exchange, brought to you by Gloo. So we're excited about our conversation. Alister McGrath, welcome to The Exchange.
[00:01:54] Ed Stetzer: Well, thank you so much for being here. I know this is, Alister, this is more your stomping grounds than mine. You were 20 years here, nine years as principal here at Wycliffe Hall, so... But looking forward to our conversation today.
[00:02:04] Alister McGrath: No, it's great to be back here. I'm looking forward to the conversation as well.
[00:02:07] Ed Stetzer: Good. Okay. So you have a new book, it's called Why We Believe: Finding Meaning in Uncertain Times. And so let's talk a little bit about what your case here is. You're trying to find that belief, broadly defined, is both reasonable and essential in some way. So let's just start. What's the theme? What's the purpose?
[00:02:23] Alister McGrath: Well, the purpose of the book is really to rehabilitate the idea of belief for everyone. And the book was commissioned by this publisher who are secular, and they said, "Look, we think, that the belief is getting a very bad name wrongly. We think you're the guy to kind of way rehabilitate it." So the book really is saying, "Look, whether you like it or not, whether you are a religious believer or a secular person or whatever, you cannot live life without believing stuff." And so what this book really is saying is, "Look, it is a problem for religious people to believe. It's a basic human instinct. It's essential to being human." And more than that, my argument is that belief is not simply cognitively okay. It's existentially necessary. So those are two themes that really stand out in the book. Belief is okay and to live a good life, you need it.
[00:03:11] Ed Stetzer: Okay. Unpack more the existential necessity of belief. How is that the case?
[00:03:16] Alister McGrath: Well, the real problem is that as human beings, we are looking for meaning. We're looking for moral values. We're looking for a way of living good lives, which means really we're looking key themes like meaning and value, which are things you cannot prove rationally or scientifically. And all psychologists really emphasize this. Look, empirical studies say it really matters to us human beings to have these beliefs because then we flourish. If we don't have them, we don't flourish. And my point simply is, look, we need to take this on board. Realize effect, the meaning of life is the big issue, and it matters people really very, very profoundly.
[00:03:52] And so we're talking about these beliefs that give meaning to life. And what I find is when I talk to secular people, they very often say, "Oh, we believe this is good," or, "We life's all about this." And I say, "Well, yes, you're right, and you do believe because you cannot prove that's true." They say, "Oh, oh, you're right." So it's a really important idea.
[00:04:10] Ed Stetzer: Okay, so contrast that to resilient doubt that we sometimes see among younger generations. How does that push back on that idea?
[00:04:17] Alister McGrath: Well, I think resilient doubt has its place. A very important idea. But in the end, you're always left in the position of saying, "Well, I do have to kind of way buy some things. I'm not really sure whether they're right or not, so in effect, I'm kind of way, taking a leap of faith here in way without realizing it." And what I'm saying is, look, we all have to take leaps of faith in terms of what we believe. But nevertheless, if you're a Christian in particular, there are excellent reasons for saying, "What I believe is right." It's just we can't go the full way and say, "This is true." In other words, may know in our hearts this is good, this is right, but in our minds, we can't actually go that final way and say, "We can prove it as I can prove to you that two and two make four."
[00:04:55] Ed Stetzer: So and that's the doubt part that causes us an ability. So how do we get to the place where we say and make claims, truth claims?
[00:05:01] Alister McGrath: Well, we say, "Look, I you all the way." But listen, I've taken you a long way there, and the final bit is actually not that difficult. I need to make a little leap of faith. It's not irrational, saying, in effect, we go the full way. But then I'd want to take the conversation in a different direction. I would say, "Look, you need to understand that doubt is not limited to religious people." Richard Dawkins and I have debated things, when I've pressed him very hard, "Can you prove atheism is true?"
[00:05:27] Ed Stetzer: No.
[00:05:28] Alister McGrath: So you see the same point is there. If you are an atheist who really believes there is no God, it's matter of belief. You cannot go the full way say, "I know this is, there's no God." Can say, "I think there's some very good reason for saying there isn't a God, but I can't prove it." And so what I'm saying is, look, to Christians, realize you are not in a kind of problematized category. Everybody has the same problem. Just relax. Atheists have doubts, you doubts too, but in effect you've got some very good reasons for saying, "This is not simply true and trustworthy, even though I actually prove it the absolute certainty I say that, well, two and two make—"
[00:06:05] Ed Stetzer: Yeah, so belief is good. You're making the case that belief is not just good, it's necessary. And it being necessary though, that doesn't necessarily mean, I mean, then I could have any kind of belief. But you're a Christian. You've made the case lots of times of Christianity's capacity to offer a meta-narrative that makes sense. So take it in our conversation, as you do elsewhere, take it a step more, a step further. What about that Christian belief?
[00:06:29] Alister McGrath: Let's just take one step further back. Made a very good point. I'm not saying you believe anything you like. You know, obviously you have to say there's some very good reasons thinking this is right, and that's important.
[00:06:37] Ed Stetzer: And that's a real part of the case in the book.
[00:06:39] Alister McGrath: But you're right, move on, talk about Christianity. Why do we, in effect, see Christian belief as being a special category, a very important category, and why am I Christian, not an atheist? I think the answer I would give is this, that one of the things that held me back from becoming a Christian was a feeling that, I was, stepping beyond the bounds of reason. That in fact, that was intellectually illegitimate. And what made me rethink that whole thing was realizing actually, when I was an atheist, I had actually gone beyond the rationally permissible by in effect saying, "Evidence doesn't really prove there is a God, therefore there is no God."
[00:07:14] You see, I was in effect inflating this. I was going beyond what reason had shown. And one I began to realize is that maybe everyone who talks about the God question is in a very similar position. You may, in effect, make some declarations with very great confidence, but in the end you cannot prove it's true. There's always going to be that little bit of moving from truth claims to actually knowing it is true. So I want to begin by saying that Christians are not at any disadvantage. Indeed, they are at a huge advantage. One of the points I'm making in an upcoming book is that actually Christianity's been around for 2,000 years, and something doesn't hang around 2,000 years unless there's something really going for it.
[00:07:53] And in this age of throwaway worldviews, people are very often saying, "I want something that's stable. I want something that's not going to kind of evaporate in the next 10 years." So they're coming back to Christianity because of its deep historical roots and the excellence of its ideas. So you prove they're right in the cognitive sense, but you see, Christians will say, "Well, look, it's not simply about reason." We have to take in mind the Holy Spirit in effect saying, "I conceal this truth in your heart." You know, Calvin's definition of faith, you know, it involves head and heart. The Holy Spirit effect confirms in our mind and seals in our heart these great truths of faith. So what I'd want say is that, Christianity really is saying, "Here is a way of thinking that's not simply true, it's trustworthy, and it's life-changing."
[00:08:41] And that brings us to another point, which I'm sure we're going to talk about, which is Christianity has this massive existential payload. What I mean by that is it's a truth that transforms.
[00:08:52] Ed Stetzer: I want to come to the existential payload question in a little bit. But you mentioned... Matter of fact, last time you were on the radio program, Ed Stetzer Live, you, we talked about your book about people coming to faith. You know, we're here recording at Wycliffe Hall. We're in Oxford. We're in England. So, you know, many Americans are hearing about this Quiet Revival report and more. Is this kind of case resonating with people in a post-Christian environment like the UK?
[00:09:15] Alister McGrath: Well, I think it is. I mean, I had held the Chair of Theology here in Oxford for nine years, and what I found was an awful lot of people who'd read my books would come and see me. A lot of them were not Christians or religious believers, but they said, "We want to talk to you because we think you guys are onto something, but we to, in effect, check this what..." And we had these wonderful conversations which, in effect, very often about them opening up and saying, "Here's what we're looking for. Here's we're longing for, and we don't find this in secularism. Tell us why Christianity makes these connections." And actually, what I saw in them, really were people who were looking for something that was not simply reliable, but life-changing. And so there is something going on here.
[00:09:54] Ed Stetzer: I—
[00:09:54] Alister McGrath: Particularly younger people are saying the old truths of the past just don't do it for us anymore. The kind of things we learned in the '60s or '70s or '80s, you know. We need to go back to something even older, which seems be deeply rooted, and re-examine it, because there's something there that we've missed.
[00:10:11] Ed Stetzer: Yeah. And, you know, I, and we've seen a lot, we're seeing similar questions in the US. But part of that is it seems that with the world being so upended as it is, people are searching for truth and meaning in a lot of different places, which I think is why belief resonates so much, which is why I think even the publisher would have you write a book, Why We Believe: Finding Meaning in Uncertain Times. But connect with me the uncertain times to the search for belief and meaning, and what that means for the Christian faith.
[00:10:36] Alister McGrath: Well, I we're living a very interesting cultural moment. What we are seeing is, the emergence of a world what I would call throwaway worldviews. And what I mean by that is that the great big pictures of life which held sway for so long are just being junked, and there's nothing obvious that's going to replace them. People are beginning to realize no worldview, no moral values, no existential meaning. Where do we go? We need something that's able to give us moral values and meaning personal significance. So if you like, the old worldviews, whether they were secular or not, in effect, are now really beginning to crumble, and people are beginning to say, "Let's look and find something that actually is something that we're not gonna simply be able to enjoy and benefit from ourselves, but hand on to our children."
[00:11:21] This is a very interesting dynamic here, which is people are beginning to realize that, the kind of worldview of 1960s, which I grew up in, by the way, was about radical innovation, breaking with the past, and all you're left with is something that's free-floating, that is not rooted, and they're looking for something that is historically grounded and metaphysically rooted.
[00:11:43] In other words, it's like the Sermon on the Mount. You want to build your life on solid rock, not shifting sands. And that's why I think a lot of people are looking for something that really is stable, something that's really going to endure, rather than kind of will be out of date in five years' . 'Cause cultural change is so quick that kind of way, the views that trendy people held five years ago are now just being seen as, "Oh, that was what we thought then. Now it's different." And I say to them, "Well, what's it gonna be like five years' time?" "We've no idea." Well, how then can build your life on something stable? And every time I make this point to a younger person, they say, "Oh, you are right. You know, there's something there." And that, again, is why Christianity is able to make this connection.
[00:12:24] Ed Stetzer: You know, a lot of times in your writing, you emphasize the meta-narrative, Christianity's capacity to offer a meta-narrative that makes sense of the human experience. Talk to us a little about that in this current cultural moment in the West. What's that opportunity for us?
[00:12:37] Alister McGrath: Well, that really is a very good question. I think that the Christian meta-narrative is really important for two reasons. One is it's saying, "Here's a story that makes sense of things. It's a story that makes sense of every story that's ever been told." It kind of, it gives us this big picture. So in effect, it really is saying, "This makes sense of the world, it makes sense of individual human beings." That's very important. But it does something else as well. And here's the critical It says, "Look, your story become part of that bigger story." And by doing so, it really brings you dignity and meaning and significance. An example I always give to make this point with people is Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia. Yes. And so I say to people, "Look, imagine The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe."
[00:13:20] I mean, the children discover the story of Narnia, and then they begin to fit into it. They realize they can help it move ahead. And as they begin to do that, they find they're significant, they're making a difference. They have purpose. They have all these virtues which suddenly make life meaningful. And that's one of the things about Christianity.
[00:13:39] It's not about making sense of the world, it's about making sense of us as people and saying, "Here is what you are meant be doing." One of the things that C.S. Lewis says in one of his essays, and I love this, is, you know, this quote right at the end of that essay, Is Theology Poetry? "I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not just because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." And it's this idea of Christianity being like a sun illuminating a landscape, and you see it and make sense of it. But you don't just make sense of the landscape. You realize, "I belong there." "I can fit in there somewhere." So it begins to give you this very strong idea of vocation, finding where you belong where you can make a difference. So Christianity is cognitively and existentially rich, and that's a really important point, I think.
[00:14:26] Ed Stetzer: Yeah. You mentioned Lewis, and you argue in here and other places that C.S. Lewis' idea of the imagination being essential for faith. How does that fit in, in why we believe, and what role do you think imagination helps in modern people seeing Christianity as plausible, which you mentioned a few times?
[00:14:43] Alister McGrath: Well, I think that's a great question. Let's just begin by saying that a lot of people listening to us will have this rather image of imagination as things you I want to say that's not it really. It's this remarkable ability to have pictures of things. To in effect see things with our mind's eye, and that in effect brings added depth and detail to what we think, at a rational level. What Lewis is saying is, "Don't just accept things rationally and cognitively. Try and see difference they make to the way you see the world. You imagine the world a new way."
[00:15:17] And it's a very important point 'cause in effect, Lewis is picking up the gospel miracles. You know, Christ heals people's sight. They can see, and they see a new world, and that's key theme for Lewis, that Christianity enables you to see a new world, to imagine yourselves and the world in a very different way. Not making it up but discovering what's already there, which to this point you hadn't noticed.
[00:15:39] Ed Stetzer: Fascinating. Okay, so you frequently talk about how everyone lives by faith of some sort. You even mentioned that a few times here as well, religious, philosophical, secular. How do you help readers recognize their background beliefs, and why does that matter?
[00:15:52] Alister McGrath: All of us have background beliefs which, very often predispose us to think in certain ways without us realizing. And I think, in the natural sciences, there's a very interesting idea called theory-laden observation, it's a very simple idea. It simply means you think you're looking something and seeing neutrally as it really is. No, actually, you're wearing theoretical set of spectacles, you're seeing things through that theory. And what Lewis is really saying to us is, "Look, very often we look at ourselves or the world through a lens. We don't realize we're doing it, and we don't realize there other lenses we can use."
[00:16:29] What Lewis saying is really, "Look, identify the lens you are using and try a different one. Try the Christian one and see does that give you closer focus? Does it make more sense of things?" And Lewis, in many ways, is almost making a point Wittgenstein makes, which is in effect that, very often we get trapped by an image, locked into it, and what breaks us free very often is a more powerful image, and we suddenly say, "Oh, that's better. That works." And what Lewis is saying is try looking at the world through a Christian lens and appreciate the difference that it makes. It's a wonderful idea, and I've tried it lots of times with people, and actually they really enjoy trying.
[00:17:04] Ed Stetzer: So what would that look like? If I'm having a conversation with a person and I say, "I want you to see things, think Christianly, think Biblically, think through the lens, a different lens," what would that look like? And like in a relationship.
[00:17:12] Alister McGrath: Well, I'd say, "Look, let's talk about your life." I mean, let's say I'm sure it's a wonderful life. Using a secular lens, what does it look like? And the answer is you are simply, made of atoms and molecules. Your life is insignificant. There's no big picture. There's no meaning. There's no moral values. Are you happy about that? Now, try a Christian lens. A Christian lens is saying, look, first of all, we're talking about a lens that focuses in on God's love right from the word go, in the act of creation, the act of redemption, and that's saying to you immediately, "You matter."
[00:17:41] Do you realize that? Can you see what difference that makes? And it goes further and says it's not simply that you matter, but there's something that you can do. You have purpose, and more than that, that in effect God is giving us this big vision of reality which is like walking through a landscape, and you know there's a destination. You know you're going somewhere. In other words, you're walking and not just wondering what on earth is happening, rather I know where I'm going. I'm going home. And the God who loves me and redeemed me is accompanying me as I make my way home. And you think of Psalm 8, "The Lord's my shepherd," or Psalm 8, which is a wonderful meditation on the vastness of the universe, but the love of God within it, and all these are saying, "Look, there's a different way of looking at things."
[00:18:22] So what I'd want to say is that very often people will say, "Well, there is only one way of looking at things. It is that there is no meaning. There's no point. There's no purpose. I am valueless." I'm saying there are alternatives. It doesn't have be this way. Try a Christian lens. Try talking to your Christian friends and see what difference that makes.
[00:18:41] Ed Stetzer: I think that some of your debate partners over the years would say something like, "Well, Alister, I mean, that's great, but you're basically saying to me the real world is the scientific observable world. You're saying to me to put on a fantasy lens and sort of pretend something that I find comforting." How would you respond to that?
[00:18:57] Alister McGrath: Well, first of all, I think that really is a good question. Here's how I'd respond. I would say that science is wonderful in that it does try to give us an objective, neutral view of the world using only empirical methods. And I would say, as a former scientist, I love that.
[00:19:11] But that means science is limited. There are certain places it cannot go. It cannot talk about things like the meaning of life. It cannot talk about moral values, for example, because these both lie beyond the scope of the scientific method. So in my conversation with scientists, I'd often say them, "Look, you know, we're having a wonderful conversation. I'm wondering how you develop the values by which you live your life. Do you develop them from science?" And they will say, "Well, actually, no, because science doesn't go there."
[00:19:38] Ed Stetzer: To those issues—
[00:19:38] Alister McGrath: speak to those things. It doesn't speak that language. I say I, "You're right, of course. I ask you then where you get them from?" "Well, I admire this person," or, "I read a book thought that." And what they're talking about is borrowing them from else. In other words, they are saying, "I recognize that science can't give me these things, so I look at this person who I admire or that book I've enjoyed reading and say I'll base my ideas of meaning or value on them."
[00:20:03] So what I'll say to them is, "Look, I do the same thing, except I'd want to talk to you about why you've chosen those and not something else. What is it about them which validates them as a source or authority in your quest for meaning and truth and value?"
[00:20:17] Ed Stetzer: Fascinating. A lot of your work draws on the sciences. You... That's your background, especially biology and physics. You engage questions there to help people engage questions of faith. How does this new book, develop that proposal in ways that might help us think about science can illuminate rather than erode belief?
[00:20:33] Alister McGrath: Well, I think, it's a very important point you're making, which is that, I'm not saying, let's keep science out of the conversation. What I'm saying is something like this: Let's recognize there's a spectrum of human knowledge, and on that spectrum is scientific knowledge, and that's great. I'm so glad it's there. But there are other kinds of knowledge, and we need, in to have different ways of investigating our world because different methods of investigation give us different answer, and science just can't do ethics. It can't do existential meaning, not because there's anything wrong with science, but because that's not what it's designed to do. And if you say, "I use a scientific tool for everything," you are going to get yourself in a very big mess.
[00:21:13] Going back to COVID, I mean, COVID, outbreak was dreadful, but I used a thermometer every day my temperature. It was a very good idea. Supposing I argue to you like this: "My thermometer is absolutely wonderful. It my temperature so reliably. Because it's such a good tool, I'm going to use it for everything, for moral values, for the meaning of life." I mean, you would say to me, "Alistair, I think you've kind of, like, lost your " I mean, the thermometer is a tool designed a specific purpose. It can't do things it's not designed to engage, and that's true about the sciences. why we need a range of tools, a toolkit which in effect is going to enable to ask not simply how the world works or how we work, but what it's all about.
[00:21:56] What's the bigger picture? How do we make sense of things? How do we live meaningfully in this? And that means we use science alongside other tools. Science and Christianity. I don't rely on my Christianity to figure out how old the world is. I don't rely on my science to tell me the meaning of life.
[00:22:13] I don't need to because they're different, and I can weave them together in a coherent way of thinking. So my point would be that science and religion aren't rivals or enemies. They're simply conversation partners, and they talk about different things, but things that really matter in life. Or to give another example, I you know, I'll just take out this here, which I sometimes have to use, which is pair of spectacles. And what you might say is, look, there's a scientific lens and there's a Christian lens, and when I look through them both like this, what I get is stereoscopic vision. In other words, each on their own gives me something. When you put them together, you get a deeper vision of reality. So my argument is really that to appreciate this world to its maximum, to live life the full, we need many toolkits, and one of them has to be Christianity because that gives you the really important answers that we need to live meaningfully in this world.
[00:23:05] Ed Stetzer: Does that, though, how is that not kind of compartmentalizing things? Okay, science can answer these questions, and there are times when our, a Christian view of things actually steps into that space and says, for example, people are made in the image of God, worthy of dignity and respect, regardless of their capacity for whatever else it may be. I can think of 50 other things. So at times do these contradict, or are we just completely compartmentalized or some other variant?
[00:23:30] Alister McGrath: I think though are where we have to say, if I use a purely scientific lens, I see this. I use a Christian lens, see this. I have make a choice. But quite often it's not so much two things are mutually exclusive. It's two things that actually are part of a bigger picture. If like they're brush strokes, each of them making up a bigger picture. I mean, the classic example, Frank Rhodes example of a kettle boiling. You know, the kettle is boiling. Why? Energy conversion, scientific answer. I wanted to make myself a cup of tea. Energy conversion is right invalidate the making tea answer and vice versa. They are, in effect, giving you a bigger picture than either of them would on their own.
[00:24:06] So that you're right, there are times when, for example, a natural scientist would say, "There is no purpose in life." I would say, "What you're saying is does not enable us to discern purpose in life, but that doesn't mean it, there's no purpose there." And secondly, Christianity gives me a lens through which I can see purpose, so I go there for that. But I go to science for some other things.
[00:24:25] Ed Stetzer: Fair. Okay. So why we believe finding meaning in uncertain times. Let's talk about uncertain times. You mentioned that you grew up in that milieu of the '60s. It sort of feels like the world goes through cycles, and everything sort of unravels and maybe... And we seem to be in a time of unraveling. Does that create a more yearning for people? Is that a gospel opportunity from a Christian perspective?
[00:24:47] Alister McGrath: It certainly is. I think what we are seeing is people really saying, "Look, nobody seems to know the answers to life's big questions," and they don't really want to talk about them. And I think there's the real sense that, we are struggling to make sense of ourselves and our world. The rates of mental health problems amongst younger people in particular are massive in this country.
[00:25:06] Ed Stetzer: Shocking.
[00:25:07] Alister McGrath: And it's partly because they just feel confused. feel that the world simply does not make sense, and they're "We can't cope with this." So I think we really are in a cultural moment where people are uncertain and are wondering, are there any answers to be had? And very often, they're quite negative and dismissive. We've had these answers before. They haven't worked, therefore anybody who gives an answer is, in effect, setting you up for failure. A bit like Arthur Koestler, who began as a Marxist and then got completely disillusioned, and instead of looking for a different worldview, said all worldviews in the end just disillusion and disappoint.
[00:25:42] My argument is no, we have to look something that works, something that has, in effect, metaphysical grounding and historical depth. And again, those two key virtues of the Christian faith we need to keep emphasizing. This is not something that's been invented in the last 10 years. It goes way back. And it's not me saying, "I've had this brilliant idea, I'm inventing this." It's me saying, "Look, there's something dig, bigger, deeper, and richer here, and this is what Christianity is responding to, and this helps us to shape our lives in its likeness."
[00:26:12] Ed Stetzer: These two things, say them again.
[00:26:13] Alister McGrath: The things are basically being rooted in history and being grounded in metaphysical.
[00:26:18] Ed Stetzer: Okay. Something and why are both of those so important?
[00:26:21] Alister McGrath: Because in effect, one is saying it's not just gonna be here for a moment. There's a long history of people reflecting on this, giving us their ways of understanding it. And so we can draw this rich tradition of interpretation and say, "That sounds good." For example, you read Jonathan Edwards, one of America's best theologians the 18th century, and you say, "Hey, this guy really is good explaining this." And you're going back, what, 300 years? But nevertheless, there's a history of interpretation. That means you've got options as you think this through.
[00:26:47] But more than that, it's not a fly-by-night worldview. It's been around, and that means people have found it satisfying. And in an age, people are saying, " we have does not satisfy. There has to be something better than this," I think we have a very good moment for saying, "Let me tell you about one that seems to work rather well. It's been around for a very long time, but I want you to see ex, this kind of 2,000-year history, not as a burden, meaning out of date, but rather something been so powerful and significant, it's endured for 2,000 years it's got some very good answers the big questions we're asking."
[00:27:22] Ed Stetzer: So, and I do think, I mean, the answers to questions, I think those are things that are resonating in a time that's filled with questions, and answers are bad. How then do you address, though, I mean, because we can look at science, we can build on philosophical questions, worldview questions. I mean, the truth claims are pretty stunning. There was someone who was dead on Friday and back from the dead on Sunday. You know, miracles. The... How do you address those which are just so unbelievable to a world that is skeptical about such claims?
[00:27:50] Alister McGrath: Well, I think we have to say that in many ways, discussions of miracles stand in the shadow of the Enlightenment, which in effect was saying, look, innovate. We have these laws of nature and that you can't break these. Nowadays we'd be much more skeptical about that. We'd say, "No, these aren't laws of nature. These are, descriptions of what seems to happen in the natural world." And someone like David Hume, who does talk about laws of nature, actually was also an inductive skepticist, which, means he had to realize that up to this point, this has not happened, but that does not mean it cannot happen.
[00:28:22] just means that it hasn't happened yet, we've got to be careful about this. And when you look at the resurrection in that kind of framework, then you're playing a different ballgame. You're saying, in effect, that this is something that does not normally happen, and if it did happen, it'd be really quite extraordinary and deeply significant, and that is what the first Christians experienced, something that had happened. But if it had happened, it was of such significance, it in effect changed everything. So, I think we need to try and see it in that way of thinking. But I think the main point to emphasize is really that people are just tired with a shallow rationalism which offers them so little, and they're wanting to find something deeper.
[00:28:58] And that's why I think prepared to come back Christianity and think about these big claims, because their sense is, if these big claims are right, this is opening up something really very exciting. So let's take it seriously.
[00:29:09] Ed Stetzer: Let's talk a little bit about doubt. You seem to have a fascination with doubt, and I'm fascinated by your fascination with doubt. You know, and maybe I'm misreading it, but you talk of, you know, in The Journey and Doubt: A Very Short Introduction. How does doubt function in a constructive way for... You know, most of our people engaging our conversation here are Christians. How should we think about doubt?
[00:29:27] Alister McGrath: Well, I think that the important thing to say about doubt— Well, I think the important thing to say about doubt is that it really is for anybody who's committed to a worldview, and that's one of the reasons why I emphasize that atheists have doubts as I mean, I have several good friends who are atheists, and they'll say, "Look, we can't actually prove this is right, and there are some very intelligent people who are Christians we know, and so that does make us wonder whether be wrong." In the end, they say, "No, I think we're all right." But they have these doubts, and that's very important.
[00:29:53] I think the point I'd want to make is that very often we do see doubt as something, A, specific Christians, and B, a negative thing. It's not specific to Christians. Forget that. It is a human, response to having to make sense of a world where we can only go so far and then have to stop and have to say, "We don't know the answer to these questions," or the, "The answers we think we have might not be right." So in effect, that's normal. So this is a problem for humanity, not just for Christians. I think there's a very important point actually in relation to Christianity, and there's a wonderful phrase in, a 19th century, preacher, George McDonald, and he's saying, when you see a new territory or a new landscape, it's so vast that your initial response is simply to be overwhelmed by it and you really take it in, and you begin to doubt the reliability of your engagement.
[00:30:43] In other words, what he's saying is when you see a, when you see something new and exciting, then doubt's gonna be part of your response because you're not sure you can take it all in. I'd want to say that the Christian view, way of looking at things are so deep and so rich that actually we do struggle to take it in, and that's why doubt very often begins emerge. Because we simply struggle to make sense of it. What I'd like to say is simply doubt is in effect saying, "I need to go into this deeper. My present understanding of this is not good enough." Doubt is an invitation to explore, to go deeper. My own experience, which may not be representative, but it is my experience, is that my own, doubts of certain doctrines, like the doctrine of the Trinity, to give you a very good led me say, "Right, I'm going to look into this properly."
[00:31:28] And when I'd done that, I came thought, "You know, this makes sense." So in effect what I want to say is maybe doubt can be kind of spiritual growing pain. saying something you haven't really fully understood. Why not read some books or to some friends and you can move ahead on this.
[00:31:43] Ed Stetzer: I think the cultural moment is causing a lot of people to doubt their worldviews, to doubt progress, the future. I mean, the, you know, the post-World War II order collapsing. The world's— We don't know what happens next. So that does seem to be an opportunity for gospel sharing. But I think one of the things, too, in Why We Believe, you talk, the, you know, this fragmented cultural moment. You actually suggest that belief fosters community and shared meaning. Is that within the Christian community, outside the Christian community, both? How does that relate?
[00:32:10] Alister McGrath: Well, I think one of the things that Christians discover is that their faith make sense of them as people and the world see. But Christianity is not a solitary faith. You know, the church is there because it's meant to be there. It's a place which is a place of support, but it's also a place where we find people we can talk to. "How do you make sense of this? Can you help me understand this?" And certainly in my own journey of faith, I was helped enormously by people who would just talk to me and say, "Here's how I make sense of this." And actually, it really did help.
[00:32:38] So what I'd want to say is, you know, if you are struggling, do talk to other people. You may well find they say things that are helpful, and it may even be you can help other people by simply talking about what you know to be true and important in your lives. So the community of faith really is important. In many ways, communities gather around something that holds them together. It might be they play football. But in the case of Christianity, it's this sense that we have found in Christ what really matters, and we want to meet regularly to celebrate this great event and learn more about it and, in effect, deepen the quality of our faith.
[00:33:10] So the Church does play a very important role in sustaining and deepening our faith. So I think that's an important part of a life of faith. I mean, I fully understand that many Christians are lone rangers who enjoy, just doing their own thing. But we all need come together, I think, and talk each other and help people and be helped by other people. That's just of the way Christianity—
[00:33:32] Ed Stetzer: Yeah. I don't wanna leave our conversation without talking about the existential focus of book and why is that important?
[00:33:37] Alister McGrath: Well, what I say in this book is that, faith, above all Christian faith, has a deep existential component. What I mean by that is that what Christianity is saying is that Christianity is not simply true, it is real.
[00:33:51] Let me explain the difference I'm trying to make here. It is true that you and I are sitting here today in chapel in Oxford University, having a wonderful time talking to each other, and that's interesting. But, real is something that goes beyond that. It's something life-changing. In other words, something that has the capacity not simply to register in my head as being, "This is right," but actually, "This is so exciting. This changes my life." And so that's really the, what I want to try and emphasize here. There is, truth in the sense of, yes, this makes sense, but factuality does not guarantee relevance. I mean, I tell you a very interesting fact of British history, which is that Queen Victoria died in 1901. Now, I can see you're very excited by that.
[00:34:31] Ed Stetzer: Yeah, this is— And this is fascinating.
[00:34:31] Alister McGrath: You're saying, "I'm so glad I you told me that." But actually, so what? Yeah. And it's true but no at all. Christianity is true and trustworthy, and if it's right, it changes everything, brings meaning to life. I think that's the point I want to try make.
[00:34:47] It's not simply saying, Christianity is this set of ideas. It's, it is a framework, a vision of reality that utterly changes everything. And that's why for me, to teach Christianity is not saying, "Here's what its beliefs are." It is, "Here is the difference that these beliefs make to " In other words, they give you a sense of joy.
[00:35:07] They give you a sense of belonging, of meaning. They, in effect, bring hope to your lives. And, you know, we to, A, make sure we've discovered that for ourselves, and B, talk about that a bit more. Because what find is that in Western culture, people have this weird idea that Christians believe certain things, and that kind of way is it. That's the end of it. I'd say to them, "No, no, no. It's about, yes, they do believe those things, but it's the difference they make to life when they are properly understood." And that, in effect, is moving it into a different league altogether.
[00:35:35] Ed Stetzer: Changes it categorically. All right. So you write about the resonance between Christian belief and human experience. What aspects of experience? I mean, I guess there's so many, but like anxiety, loneliness, longing for purpose. What do you think at this moment most strongly resonate with the Christian vision?
[00:35:50] Alister McGrath: Well, I two things that are resonating. Now I'll tell you about the third one, which is People the most important. in effect bewildered by rapid cultural change. They're looking for stability. We can talk about how Christianity brings stability. Again, people are trying to make sense of our world, and again, we can talk about how Christianity really is in effect about making sense of our world. But I for many it's this very deep sense of longing that so many of us have. There has to be something worth believing in. There has to be something that brings meaning significance to my life. I found it yet, but if I could only find that it would change everything. And that sense of yearning or longing, it's not named. I don't know what I'm looking for. I'm aware I haven't found whatever it is, but it's out there somewhere.
[00:36:33] People like Augustine in the fifth century or C.S. Lewis in the 20th century both say, "Look, this is God having implanted, if you like, a sort of homing instinct within us. He's made us and he's made us to find our way back to him as best we can, partly by planting these longings which make us ask these deep existential questions. Where is my source of joy? Where is my source of hope?" And of course, for both Lewis and Augustine, God is the one who brings joy, satisfaction, and in effect, it's about in effect this sense of God being the one who fulfills us and transforms us, and that's really important today.
[00:37:13] Ed Stetzer: Love it. Last question is, so in Why We Believe, again, the whole idea here is finding meaning in uncertain times, Why We Believe. What do you hope if there's... You know, it's always hard for an author to say this, but what's like one takeaway you really wish that people would know? And I would encourage people to get the book, but what would you encourage that they take away from the book when they read it?
[00:37:31] Alister McGrath: Take away the book this very simple observation. Everybody believes, and not everybody realizes that. And what I'm saying my readers is very simply this. Christians believe and they think, "Oh, dear, we're on our own here. That means we doubt. That means we can't prove that we are right. We are at a huge disadvantage." I'm saying, no. This is a human issue. Anything that really matters beyond proof. I can prove really shallow truths, but not deep truths of meaning or moral value or purpose. So either you shut them out and say, "We can't answer those questions," or you say, we in effect say, "We recognize in answering them we go beyond what reason and science can prove, but it's worth it."
[00:38:13] You aren't believing anything you want. It's about recognizing there are some very important clues in our world about what that meaning is and where these quests take us. So what I want to say to anybody reading this book is realize, yes, Christians believe, but at least we're honest about everybody else does, and the key point is we have a transformative belief where we can talk about the difference it makes to us. Whereas for other people, it's a purely factual belief. These are things that are right. We're talking about in Christianity something that changes life utterly, and that's really exciting.